CWS FL-AZ plate umpire
 

Did anyone see the press confrence of the FL player complaining about the plate umpire in monday's game? She admitted that they lost, but stated that the plate umpire was inconsistant and should be re-evaluated.

14-4. It was the umpire's fault. Come on girl, grow up and show some class. :(

I'm not surprised. She is a direct reflection of her coach. Tim Walton was pissing and moaning about the strike zone throughout the entire tournament. He was given a very long leash in that regard. He should have been tossed at least once for it.

I also find it ironic that the player who was complaining about the zone struck out swinging on a pitch at her eyes to end game 2.

I don't blame umpires for losses, but I also don't blame her for swinging at that high pitch seeing how it sure looked like an inconsistent strike zone. I wasn't at all impressed with PU in the first game of the 2 out of 3 final. That one that she said she heard hit the bat was terrible. No way should of that batter had to come back to bat. Dave

Come on shipwreck. If you are an umpire, don't tell me you never have saw or heard (or didn't) something that didn't actually happen. Then latter told by your partner or UIC that they had something different. Give me a break.

To me the only way her comment holds any weight if the came back in game two and held close or destroyed ASU.

Those things have happened to almost every umpire at some time. I guess since this was the championship, and these should be the best of the best umpires, I got carried away when she blew it. It just seemed like it was just so obvious that it hit her arm and not the bat, but maybe she was blocked. I would bet money though, if that would have been me in a much less important game and my UIC saw it, I would have gotten a serious talking to. Dave

Seriously?? I only saw about 3 innings of the game and her zone looked pretty good to me.

It was impossible to tell from her position whether or not the ball hit the batter or the bat. Sometimes the bone on the forearm sounds like the bat. All she had to go on was sound and the batter reaction. The batter did not react immediately acting like she was hurt, so it was just a best guess on sound. She agreed to go to her partners for help, but there was no way they could help.

Wasn't obvious to me. Slow motion replay showed it hit her arm, I could not tell in real time and for sure when I do not have the tv cameras to help me. Maybe you are just that much better than me, though.

Oh please, just because we are umpires doesn't mean we have to defend the umpires everytime does it? There are the few times the umpires are wrong and many more times the coaches are wrong but all should get their due. That batter reacted immediately when she got hit. Dave

General statement, no particular call noted.

No, but as an umpire you should be aware of the circumstances that may have lead to what some may say was a missed/kicked call. It always looks different from another angle, that is why, as umpires, we occassionally go to partners for help.

Defend? Maybe not. Agree? Maybe not. Understand? Absolutely

I agree wholeheartedly. I was just bringing up that I didn't think she had a great game. Dave

She was also way out of position on a call at third about 2 or 3 batters after the foul/HBP.

R1. Ground ball to F6 who threw out BR at 1B. R1 never let up and headed to 3B. PU was late in reacting and was on the move about half way up the line when the play happened. The one positive was she continued about 3 or 4 more steps to get closer as she made her safe call to at least appear to be in position.

Drumm should have never been behind the plate for that game. The assigner knew she had had a tough game with these two teams earlier. The assigner let BOTH teams and Drumm down in this regard. Personally I think her partners let her down as well. How in the world did they not see the ball hit the arm. It was not even close. The problem here was elevated because of the NCAA mechanics. We all have bad games. We all have bad tournaments. Overall the umpiring was not up to the par of what we have come to expect at this level and of these selections. We could get into "agenda's" but I dont think i have enough time.

NCAA Mechanics require the plate umpire to hold on the 1st base line extended to watch for a pulled foot before releasing to 3B for the play. You do not cheat and watch for a pulled foot while you are running toward 3B.

The first play (at 1B) is the first responsibility, then release to 3B. If a runner is going from 1 to 3, and is very fast, it is possible that the plate umpire might not make it all the way to 3B when the play happens.

Very good points here.

I'm just curious about your comment on how NCAA mechanics elevated the problem. Just asking.

View
 

The 3rd base umpire was rotated over due to runner on first. This umpire would have had the best view. NCAA mechanics want the plate umpire to go to the first base umpire.
Yes, I know they all got together. All for show.
But you can see by the involvement of the first base umpire in the actions that took place after the request for more information by Drumm that the rotated umpire had little involvement in any substiquent decision.

ASA is not as detailed, but appears to be similar, trailing the runner first.

Not clear to me what U3 should be doing in this sitch.

Collision
 

Did anyone else catch the collision between U1 and a fielder (I think F3) during Monday night's game?

At all NCAA championships, the game assignments are not a decision by a single individual; there is not "an assigner." The UIC makes a recommendation to the committee, who then has the final say.

Plate Ump Trail vs Third
 

Let me see if i understand this.....runner on first, plate ump is to trail BR until he/she is confident of pulled or no pulled foot. AND THEN worry about the runner that had been on first and the subsiquent call at third when that runner is busting butt to go to third.

Why would a plate umpire want to be concerned about a "possible" appeal of a play at first and not be in position for his/her Primary responsibilty of the call at third? Why would a plate umpire be worried about a call that is NOT his/her primary responsibility?

The pulled foot of a first base defensive player is not the primary call of the plate umpire.

That is the responsibility of the PU to watch/help out on the pulled foot/swipe tag, etc in all codes in all umpire systems. Even in a 2 umpire system with a runner on second, you would trail (albeit a few feet), and then have the runner into third if that is the secondary play.

I was surprised to see her back there also.. she DID have a tough two previous games....but she's there....I'm not....

Are we finished criticizing other officials on a public forum? :o

I don't think this was ever a checked swing issue. She did not go to U1 prior to saying it went off the knob. She did, for some reason, walk 3/4 of the way to 1st before bringing the batter back. What's interesting about that is that, in a Super this year, a PU walked down to first, looked at the batter's arm, and then awarded 1st.

I'm not sure a rotated U3 would have had a better view of this than U1 on the line. This was a RH batter. I will say that if either of her partners had anything different, they should have helped her out. I'm pretty sure their coming together was NOT for show.

That's the rub isn't it? You can't criticize the decision to have an umpire work a game without criticizing that umpire indirectly.

When the Director of Championships for the NCAA publicly states that "we bring our best here.", what is she saying about the remainder of college officials? Of course, what else can she say? The truth? Many know better.

I'm not seeing much criticism that's out of line.... we've all had rough games... and we've all been criticized/questioned

The play into third is not the secondary play for the plate umpire. It is the primary play/call that is the responsibility of the plate umpire. The pulled foot is a secondary play/call for the plate umpire. The call at first and a pulled foot is a "if" call for the plate umpire. "IF" they appeal, they will ask for his/her opinion/help.

True the plate umpire should trail the BR. But only to the point (normally the plate umpire will not even get to the running lane) in which that the R1 has approached (if passing...this would be considered possibly too late) second base on her way to third. At this point the plate umpire must adbandon the BR and be in position for the call at third.

This is the mechanic for both ASA and NCAA.

You do understand it.

You got it. Other than misspelling subsequent twice (2 different ways even).

Two possibilities ... a) because said umpire wants to work again, b) because the umpire has been to a clinic and knows their responsibilities on this play.

I doubt PU was worried. PU was operating as told and taught though.

Says who? You... vs NCAA mechanic manuals and clinics (among others)? I choose the latter - no offense intended.

I don't believe you are correct. However, I only keep my Participant Manual here at work - Umpire version is in my bag, in my car.

I am beginning to question your experience and knowledge of the prescribed mechanics.

The FIRST responsibility of the plate umpire, as mentioned, is pulled foot/swipe tag( /running lane violation/obstruction/interference/coaches interference/dead ball on an overthrow). This is so because there IS a play happening at first base. There IS NOT a play happening at any other location until this play is over and the plate umpire must complete their FIRST responsibility. While this is not a PRIMARY call for the the plate umpire, it is their FIRST responsibility. The play at third IS their PRIMARY call, but it is (possibly, should it develop) their SECOND responsibility. If you abandon your FIRST responsiblity, you have no credibility on anything I listed (and I probably missed a few others).

I would venture to guess that in all my years, I have had more pulled foot/swipe tag issues than plays at third; most often on a set play when F3 comes off early to make the second play at third.

Also, in this situation, angle over distance dictates at 3rd base. Why? because your 3rd base umpire has a 90 if the slide and tag go to the back of the bag, plate umpire gets their prescribed 90 from the advancing runner into 3rd. Both angles are covered then close the distance as best as possible. Three umpires have to cover four bases, that means that on occassion, an umpire will be late to the party, it is a defined

At no time ever (unless an umpire chases) would the plate umpire trail as far as the running lane. 20' in ASA, 15' in NCAA (10' with a runner on first). NEVER 30' or more as you suggest. And why only 10' with a runner on first; because it keeps us closer to our 90 at third.

Also, in a three umpire system, I have, on a couple of occassions, as the 3rd base umpire, taken the runner from first all the way to 3rd. It is a read that has to happen early and your plate umpire has to get hung up in some fashion. I am not suggesting that this was required in the play described, but it is a deviation that is sometimes necessary.

Seems you read that incorrectly. If the play at third is the secondary play, meaning a play has happened somewhere else, then the PU will make the call at third. If the initial play is on R1, PU will not be making this call in any umpire system.


PU has the responsibility to watch for this on plays at first base, and where it is seen from depends on where runners start. But in this instance, with R1 (at first), PU will trail a BR.

Normally? Try like the PU should never trail more than 15 feet.

The PU will NEVER give up the play at first if that is where the play is happening, in a two umpire system of three umpire system. Even if the single runner started at second. You see the play first, then you move to third.

If that's what you believe, please cite page number of the must recent ASA or NCAA manuals.

Bandit... Time to go to another clinic. :rolleyes:

BTW. If the clinic is in SoCal that HP umpire most likely will be one of the instructors. :D

I will be working for Chris next weekend at a Gold Qualifier. I will tell her you don't agree with the mechanic. Maybe you and she can get together and change it. ;)

Let's not confuse chronology with responsibilities. I think Wade helped with different words.

Well, I have a hard time with that one.

R1 is going to reach 2nd with possible movement toward 3B before a pulled foot may occur. I would think the priority it the possible play two bases closer to home..

NCAA manual as noted by Wade earlier

I wasn't questioning the accuracy of the post, just don't care for it as a mechanic.

I understand. Sometimes I feel the same as I am busting my a** to third and see the play starting to unfold as I am half way there.

I agree. When given the choice between 2 sets of eyes for a probable force play at 1st or 1 set for a tag play at 3rd, you need to do the best you can on the first play without compromising a good look on the second. I believe you trail less and cheat towards 3rd. You can run to the "X" as prescribed by the manual, but, if your game happens to be televised, you may be the subject of a thread like this.

Maybe they can get together and discuss HBP, timing, and the strike zone as well. There IS some video they can reference for instructional purposes.

HBP: Don't tell me you've never made this exact same call or a call like it (like a hit ball off the foot as a live fair ball). I have.

Timing: If you are talking about her strike call. Call down, come up, then signal. I didn't see anything wrong with it. Are you a baseball guy???

strike zone. 1 finger point at another has three pointing back at you. Basically, The pitcher must adjust and that is her only strong pitch then shame on her coach(es) for allow that to happen. Some umps call it some don't.

BTW have you done any TV games? If so which one(s). I am sure we would all be glad to give you a critique.

Once I tell a coach that it did hit the knob and "I EVEN heard it", I have doubled down on my call. I can't see me then going to my partners for them to tell me that I didn't see/hear what I saw/heard. If she thought she had enough information to make that call, fine, stick with it. If not, give the batter the benefit of the doubt. Also, I'm not waiting that long to make that call either.

Actually I was referring to the 3-2 pitch where she made no signal, only to call the batter out once she reached 1st. But, since you brought it up, I do think less of a delay between her verbal and signal would be better. Her timing has been a topic of discussion on more than just this board.

So, you're saying that the players must adjust to an inaccurate zone? Wow, I guess the game really is about us. That, IMO, is a lame defense for an umpire.

Yes I have. And you may well be able to pick my game apart. But I'm not touted as the "best of the best".

Congrats on announcing (boldly!) who wrote the book. Kudos.

Now try opening it. As promised, I did. It's right there in black and white - your assertions are dead wrong.

Page?

You'll have to let me know if it's changed, but the '09 CCA Softball manual pg. 181 says:

"...come to the foul line in fair territory and trail the batter-runner about 10 feet up the line. Be stopped in a ready set to see the play at first base. If R1 rounds second base, move to a primary position for a tag play at third base by first establishing your angle and then closing down the distance."

Doesn't seem to definitively support Bandit or Big Slick.

Isn't that what I said? It is on page 183 of the 2011 manual. I was in agreement with Wade (starting writing before he made his post) countering Bandit.

Again ... book in the car. However, you've been told by EVERYBODY that you are wrong... why don't you crack open the book for the first time and find even the slimmest shred of evidence supporting your contention, and tell US what page it's on. Good luck. You won't.

You're the guy in the elevator facing the back. When told that you're supposed to face front, you say, "Nope, this is the right way." The entire elevator tells you you're wrong. You say, "Prove it". They all point to a sign on the front of the elevator ... behind you. You say, "Can't see that, I'm facing the back."

:rolleyes:

Flipper... I am done, but we all have strike zones that fluctuate. I am not saying that we should not do our best to have the most accurate zone possible, but sometimes we are off and a college pitcher of a ranked team s/b able to adjust.

Slick....fixed the page number for you.
P.183 is the coverage for Single to OF w/Runner on 1st. P.182 is the coverage for the OP...Hit to INF w/Runner on 1st.

From ASA FP camp 2009 by julie johnson

runner on 2nd base and ball hit on infield with play going to first base. hp umps primary is 3rd base. move directly up the line and head moves on a swivel. we went over this before.

runner on 1st. trail and move to poistion at third when runner hits second.

From ASA FP camp 2009 by julie johnson.

Then where should the 3b umpire go?

Did we go over this before?

I don't know, I saw two scenarios cited in your response. Once there is a runner starts on 2B, U3 goes nowhere, unless out on a fly ball down LF line, the PU goes no where unless to make a fair/foul, catch/no catch on the RF line.

"From ASA FP camp 2009 by julie johnson

runner on 1st. trail and move to poistion at third when runner hits second."

Isn't this what I said?

guess i did not notice you guys were discussing 3man.