Those sneaky player comments?
 

Been only umpiring three years HS and ASA. Working a mens modified pitch game on the bases with team A ahead by 9 to 11 runs through out the game, game ended in 6 innings. Their were 5-6 close base calls that went both ways and I was in a good position and confident all were good calls. In the 5th inning against team B a close force out call at second base from short fielder and next pitch the runner at first leaves early stealing second...I call him out to end the inning, some expected complaining right after the calls. Between innings as I was moving to my holding position RF after cleaning pitchers plate the pitcher from team B comes by me and says, for only me to hear...'that is two blue". I, just as quietly, say back, "let me know number three and we can figure out where you go next". The pitcher then says, "you are the paid professional, keep quiet". He then complains to PU that he has a right to complain even though they were good calls(?) PU never heard our exchange. After game we discussed what happened and concluded he was frustrated because his team was getting beat easily and they watch too much MLB on TV. I do not mind if they bark right after the call...but after the inning is over, they could ask hey blue what did you see? hey blue tough calls.

I have to admit sneaky negative comments seems to get to me especially knowing I am a hustling base umpire and most always in good positions and this night was very confident on all my calls. Question: Am I being too sensitive?

I have no problem up until this point. If he wants to grumble, fine, but then...

At this point, I'd have either tossed him or had a little chat with his coach. "Keep quiet" is very disrespectful, bordering on "STFU."

Sure, he has a right to complain. And you have a right to toss him. He doesn't have permission to be disrespectful towards you.

The sneaky comments will ALWAYS happen. It's up to you to decide when it crosses the line between stupid grumbling by players and disrespectful comments that are taking away from the game as a whole. Don't have rabbit ears out there, or you'll have nothing but trouble. As we say: "manage the game, not the players." If it's little chirping, I couldn't care less, but when the negativity appears to just feed upon itself and escalate, that's when I will step in. And when I do step in, I prefer working through the coaches - put the onus upon them to get their team to pipe down.

Let me ask you this. Did these players know you from before you became an umpire? These guys know you're relatively new to the profession, so they're going to ride you. Keep your skin thick, keep a consistent line in the sand, and they'll eventually pipe down. But if you let everything get to you, they'll pick up on it, and you'll get zero mercy from them.

We have a men's modified league around here, and the pi$$ poor attitudes are rampant. They don't just complain about the calls, they practically shout their disagreements from across the field. I actually think it's worse than slow pitch. Just seems to be par for the course, if you ask me.

Well... normally I'm tossing the JA that makes a comment like that. However, you opened the door a bit by being snarky first. Why'd you say that - did it make you feel wittier than him?
He has no "right" to complain about anything. He might get away with it... but there are no "rights" here. He's on thin ice and surprisingly not ejected after telling you to shut up. I think he should count himself lucky at that point.

Disclaimer: I don't always act as calmly and cooly on the field as profess - I too have fallen victum to trying to one-up a player's comment with one of my own...... but what I try to do (and many times succeed) in the case you describe.......

First comment:

Walk away - no retort needed, BUT if I just can't control myself, I have used "that's enough" and then turned and walked away.

That means the "mouth" would not have been able to give the follow up comment with out following you, creating a situation where (if he continues with ejectable statements) he's simply gone... poof....
:D

One of my favorite expressions!

There's nothing at all wrong with a "That's enough". Tells the coach/player that they are right at the line. If they choose to eject themselves at that point, it's really their call.

Just don't do what I witnessed 3 weeks ago. "That's enough, coach." Coach continues. "Coach, I said that's enough." More. "Coach, one more word and you're gone." More. "Coach, I said one more word and your gone."

"That's enough" means that's enough. No more. Warn and don't punish when the warning is not heeded, and you no longer have any teeth to your warnings.

My two cents......
Reread the first sentence in the last part of Dave's reply....."'The sneaky comments will ALWAYS happen." Then reread the remaining three paragraphs. Great advice there....especially when it comes dealing with a men's league.
Men's leagues are a different animal entirely. They require a somewhat different style of game management than we might employ in say HS, JO, or NCAA. At these levels you are (for the most part) tested by the coaches who are always looking to gain an edge. Men, both the coaches and players, will test you that way too, but they'll also test you in any number of ways to see if you've got some backbone. All new umps have to go through it, and it's a very fine line to walk. As already pointed out, you can't have rabbit ears, but on the other hand, you can't be used as a verbal punching back. Remember, with a men's league if you're getting crab from team A, the guys on team B are watching how you handle it. Some examples....how you handle a batter *****ing about a strike call (or pitcher/catcher about a ball call), runner/coach complaining about an out or safe call on a whacker on the bases, crap from the dugouts, coach/player showing you up etc. You're being watched by the other team...let one player, coach, team walk over you and the guys on the other side see you as fair game and will pull the same crap. You will have to learn/decide what you let pass as part of the game, and what you need to address and in what manner. Remember, you don't have to get in a nose to nose or EJ someone to show that you've got some ba**s or that you can't be intimidated. Firm, tough when you need to be...yes. Someone with a rep as having hair trigger EJ button...not so good. You have to work at managing the crap they throw in a manner that builds credibility (in their eyes) in your ability as umpire at this level.
Keep in mind that if you work a men's league you see many of the same players season after season. So learning how to handle these guys the right way early in your career is important.
For a third year guy I think you showed some gumption (which is good) with the pitcher, but the way you did it prompted the whole thing with the PU...(not good). What you want to do there is after a close out call on the bases ends an inning, don't go anywhere near the pitcher's plate, no matter how dirty it is. Not important at that moment. The important thing is after making the call hustling to your between innings position. It just avoids the inevitable.
I think if you speak to some veteran umpires here on the board or in your local association who broke in doing men's softball they'll tell you that if nothing else it taught them how to handle intimidation.

I learned a long time ago never to use the phrase "One more word, and you're gone." Why? What if, after you say that, he says "I'm sorry." Now what are you going to do...he said another word. You've just backed yourself into a corner.

Thanks for the good advice...
 

Knew when I heard the paid professional I made a mistake...'that's enough' or just walk away, maybe a glaring look would've been more appropriate. I can not believe how rude and nasty men's modified leagues are towards us umpires.

PS: This pitcher was the player-coach and lead prayers before the game.

I agree with everything you said, but I do disagree with you on this one point. I'm not going to let a player or coach disrupt my routine just because we had a disagreement over a call. It can be seen as either me avoiding the player because I may have kicked the call, or I'm not brushing off the plate because I have a grudge. In a way, you're showing him up. By going ahead and brushing off the plate, you're telling the team that you're not going to let one call change how you do things, as well as that despite the disagreement, you're still going to treat him the same as any other pitcher. If the pitcher wants to discuss the play at this time, sorry, but it's too late, we're moving forward now.

Getting right back on the horse and proceeding with the game as normal is, in my opinion, the best thing you can do as the umpire.

I can totally believe it. I've been calling slow pitch for 18+ years, 14 of which were in "adult" leagues. It's amazing how petty some of those guys can be.

And never use ultimatums. :cool:

After my 3rd year back (off of five years after 6 years on) I developed a very thin skin and I was tossing people (not just coaches :eek:) left and right. During the off season (in Socal that's between Dec to Jan) I had to really think about if I should continue. 10 years later and I am glad I continued. In the last ten years I think I have eject 10 coaches. My goal is to keep every one on the field. Yes there is a line but I professionally put an end to it before it gets out of hand. A lot of times it is as easy as walking up to the head coach and saying, "I've heard you (your coaches), now let's play ball." You can even use this in your situation with an older player. The bottom line is you professionally acknowledge them and then polity tell them to move on.

I think the 3rd year of umping is the toughest. You know your mechanics and are very sure of your judgement, but you may not be 100% on all the rules.

Here is my funniest ejection. I called a high strike on the daddy coaches DD/F1. The next half inning I did not call it for her and daddy started chirping. After the half inning ended I went to the coach and told him that I made a bad call, and it is time to play ball. He told me that I was going to have to eject him or he would continue. I told him nope he was going to have to tough it out. At that point he told me he was ejecting himself. Before I started the inning I turned around and he was behind the bleachers. I looked at him and said, "Coach you ejected yourself. You need to go to the parking lot." He went.

I pulled something similar in volleyball. I was coach/player. Team was VERY good, but while playing a sub-par team they were getting cocky and weren't really playing. So I started yelling at the ref at my first opportunity. She wouldn't toss me - so I said under my breath, "I'm going to keep yelling at you until you eject me." She finally did... and the team lost. It worked, they started playing for real again after that, even when we were dominant - and we won the league. The fun part was going before the review board to get my 1-game suspension (automatic) removed. They almost didn't.

Agreed.... NEVER ;):D;):D;)

Use an ultimatum one more time, and I swear I'll... :D

I couldn't disagree more with this comment in general. You do the job of officiating and managing the game, not the personnel. If someone crosses the line, you get rid of them regardless of the situation or available substitutes.

Don't get me wrong, an umpire needs to understand everyone's job on the field and allow them to do that job and that includes discussing plays and calls, but in a calm and collected manner. Screaming and hollering at an umpire only conveys anger and ignorance, not doing a job and/or protecting a player.

[rant]
I have too often run into people who brag about keeping players in the game for XXX years. I don't question their abilities or management, but when they are the only umpire in a certain area who has zero ejections working the same teams as everyone else, something is wrong.

I work in an area where we were losing 2-4 umpires a year specifically because of the behavior of the players. That does not include the 1-2 a year we would lose at a specific Independence Day tournament because the players. And you know who was at fault? The local umpires who were told to try and keep players in the game. They did and the players believed that it was okay to act the ***. And when they did get tossed by an umpire who wouldn't put up with it, obviously, that umpire became the WOE.

All I want umpires to do is the job. That job does not include taking abuse and when that does happen, the umpire's job is to manage the game and sometimes that includes getting rid of a player.
[/rant]

[I][QUOTE=NCASAUmp;763152]I agree with everything you said, but I do disagree with you on this one point. I'm not going to let a player or coach disrupt my routine just because we had a disagreement over a call. It can be seen as either me avoiding the player because I may have kicked the call, or I'm not brushing off the plate because I have a grudge. In a way, you're showing him up. By going ahead and brushing off the plate, you're telling the team that you're not going to let one call change how you do things, as well as that despite the disagreement, you're still going to treat him the same as any other pitcher. If the pitcher wants to discuss the play at this time, sorry, but it's too late, we're moving forward now.
[/I]
We're looking at this from different perspectives. And as with so many other things that happen on the field, we all have our own ways of dealing with issues that we've found work for us and based on our experience and how we view the umpire player/coach relationship and that's fine...whatever works, whatever gets the job done.
Keeping in mind that we're talking men's leagues here....
The point that I was trying to make was the pitcher being involved or not involved in a hotly contested call on the bases end an inning had nothing to do with my choosing not to sweep the pitcher's plate. It's just to avoid any more discussion on a play that has already been argued seconds earlier.
Now, someone wants to make it a point on their way out to their defensive position to swing by my between innings spot in short RF and continue chirping, well now we've got a problem that's going dealt with very quickly.
And I never show a player or coach up....which is why I'll run one in a heartbeat if they do it to me. We can argue...lets just do it the right way.

Getting right back on the horse and proceeding with the game as normal is, in my opinion, the best thing you can do as the umpire.

Never a problem.

Which is why I never said you're wrong, I just said that I disagree. :)

No two umpires will have the exact same game management techniques. What works for me may not work for you, and vice versa.

Just wanted to toss out a different perspective on how I would handle a difficult player.

Never said you did.
BTW...how's the move to FP coming along? hope it's going well. How's all the new gear working out?

Haven't called a game yet. As soon as I got all my gear, the local league started their post-season tournaments. That's the worst time to introduce a new umpire.

Fortunately, there's a huge FP tourney near me this weekend, so I might swing by for a while.

Funny thing about the gear, though. I got the plate shoes and put them on 3 times: once to try 'em on, twice to get my plate pants fitted properly. Before I even got a chance to call a game in them, the laces broke! :eek:

Fortunately, Honig's made it right and sent me new laces.

They'll break, too. Stop by a good shoe store and get a couple pairs of good quality athletic shoe laces to keep in your bag.

Yeah, but after only the 3rd time of lacing them up, never having seen a speck of glorious, glorious field dirt? :D

There have been some really good comments and suggestions posted you guys.

I would like to add a phrase or technique I picked up from a basketball ref and evaluator of NBA refs to the point the player made with that is two blue. When coach walks up to the ref and says that is two or something similar that is out of line but said quietely, he will take a couple steps away from the coach and lightly blow his whistle and tell his partners who are standing at different ends of the court, that the coach has a warning. No one knows what the coach said but everyone saw him say something and they now know that it warranted a warning. Here in softball, you could call your partner and state loudly so and so has a warning. Player now knows it, everyone in the stands and all teams know it. Of course, you need a partner or partners who know what to do when they get this type of info from you.

what's a warning ?

I got some New Balance 450 a couple of years ago. A lace broke the second time I laced them up, but I sure do like these shoes. Is that what you got? Dave

I replaced the laces on my 450s the day I got them. I went to Wally world and got a couple packs of boot laces. Installed 1 pair and have a pair in the bag as spares.

That's what I got.

No biggie, though. Was just surprised, as I've never bought a pair of shoes before where the laces broke right away. Not once, not ever! :eek:

But damn, they're some nice shoes! :D