Runners are on first and third bases with one out. The batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop who throws to second base for the second out. During the attempt to throw out the batter-runner, the runner who started on first base interferes with the throw. Meanwhile, the runner on third base has crossed home plate [before the interference]. Does the run count?

glen

Good question, whiskers, with the answer not as simple as some would think. Here's how I would call it in ASA. The runner closest to home (in this case the batter-runner, since the runner from 3B had crossed the plate) is out. Since the third out was made by the batter-runner before he reached 1B, the run does not count.

We had a discussion a while back about a similar play where the softball rule works to the advantage of the team that commits the infraction. Suppose it was bases loaded, one out, ground ball to F6, who throws to F4 for the force at 2B, and the runner from first interferes with the throw to 1B after the runner from 3B has crossed the plate. The runner closest to home (in this case, the runner who started at 2B) is out, but since that out isn't a force play, the run WOULD count. In baseball, of course, the out for interference still applies where the play was going to be (1B), so the run would NOT count.

I think the above play is an example of where the umpire should invoke the clause about a team not gaining an advantage by violating the rules. Suppose with bases loaded and one out, the BR hits a one-hopper to F6's left and falls down in the batter's box. F6 steps on 2B and takes his time to make sure of the throw to 1B, with BR just a few steps down the line. The runner from 3B crosses the plate. The runner who was on first then catches F6's throw before it gets to F3. Technically, the runner from 2B is out and the run scores, but I'm going to call the BR out and nullify the run.

Question: Is a runner who has crossed home plate still a runner?? Seems to me that there is more teeth in the argument that she can't be called out since she isn't a runner anymore. B/R out because of the interference. Don't count the run.

JMHO :D

-Kono

What if there were no outs?
 

I think there are several ways to disallow the run if there was one out as in the original scenario. What if there were no outs and bases loaded -- could we disallow the run that already scored before the interference? Could we deem the runner on 3rd was closest to the plate based on position before the pitch?

Sounds to me that in a situation like that that the runner scoring and the interference would be so close together that you could probably get away with saying that they runner hadn't crossed home yet.

I'm trying to picture the play in my mind and I just don't see how, if everything is played correctly, it would be obvious that the runner crossed before the interference. I think that it would be a close enough play that you could call the runner out at home.

With first and third, no outs, the run would count if it crossed the plate before the interference. The time of the interference, not the time of the pitch or anything else, is the determining factor. Of course, if the third out is a force, then no runs count, regardless of when any runs crossed.

A runner who crosses the plate is no longer a runner and can't be called out or sent back on interference that occurs afterward.

Interesting example of differences between ASA and OBR: R3 on 3B, R1 on 1B, one out. BR hits a double, moving R1 to 3B. R3 scored, but R1 missed 2B and BR missed 1B. In ASA, the defense must appeal 2B and then 1B for R3's run to be nullified. In OBR, the defense can appeal in any order; the run is nullified either way.

A runner who crosses the plate is no longer a runner and can't be called out or sent back on interference that occurs afterward.

__________________________________________________ __________

Same play first and third but shortstop throws home..throw is high runner slides in safe runner from first rounds second going to third. F2 goes to throw to third when runner that just scored grabs F2 leg and knocks her down. Would you call that runner out or would you let the run score?

Runs scores. Runner going to 3B is out. No penalty on (former) runner who scored, except possible ejection.

Generic play: runner scores, pulls out gun and shoots F2, who is in the act of making a play on another runner. Run scores, runner closest to home is out, and runner who fired gun is ejected.

Only in Fed can a runner who has scored be called out for later contact. (That's on a force play slide.) I think that's only Fed baseball, though, not softball.

Speaking ASA

If any runner misses a base to which they were forced and properly appealed, it is considered a force play for the purpose of scoring a run. ASA also allows for a 4th out appeal. Either way, in your scenario, the run would not count.

The real differences are in the acronym:

Amateur SOFTBALL Association vs. Official BASEBALL Rules

The play is right from the ASA casebook. If the defense appeals 1B and <i>then</i> 2B, the run counts. With missed bases, unlike in OBR, the appeal at 1B removes the force at 2B, even though the force was in effect at the time the play began.

ASA does allow for a fourth-out appeal, but the defense cannot put a runner out for the second out and then put the runner out again for the fourth out.

Greymule is 100% correct. I misread the play. I don't know how on earth I confused "double" with anything else, but I did. Once the appeal is made at a previous base (in a progressive order) and upheld, the force is removed from all following bases.

My apologies, must need a new pair of eyes.

However, I stand by my opinion concerning softball rules v baseball ruleshttp://www.mansun-nl.com/smilies/evillaugh.gif



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Jan 3rd, 2003 at 07:24 PM]

Are you sure about that? Can you give a cite?

2002 BRD "OFF INTERP 13-12: PBUC STAFF: If the defense will make multiple appeals, when a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made "in the proper order.""

This is followed by an example play in which the run scores because appeals were made out of order and the statement "...To cancel the run the defense needed to appeal R1 before appealing B1."

This is treated the same OBR, NCAA and FED.

Roger Greene

[Edited by Roger Greene on Jan 4th, 2003 at 08:25 AM]

Runners are on first and third bases with one out. The batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop who throws to second base for the second out. During the attempt to throw out the batter-runner, the runner who started on first base interferes with the throw. Meanwhile, the runner on third base has crossed home plate [before the interference]. Does the run count?

back to the play but with no outs.

R3 crosses home Interference is called but batter-runner never reached first yet. Does run still count or do all runners go back to time of pitch base then apply rule?

Speaking ASA, no

Quote:

back to the play but with no outs. R3 crosses home Interference is called but batter-runner never reached first yet. Does run still count or do all runners go back to time of pitch base then apply rule?

Speaking ASA, yes. I was a legally batted ball, why would you return to the T.O.P?

Because the batter-runner never reached first. The ball became dead on the interference before reaching first. Am I looking to deep into this?

Once the batter legally puts the ball into play, there is no going back.

Maybe I could better understand your train of thought if you tell us which rules you are referencing?

Richard10,

I agree with Mike, why go to TOP.

Currently I only have the AFA/NCAA rules with me, but would think
ASA was pretty close .

AFA -
Section 9.6e. [Runner interference]: A base runner, after
being declared out or after scoring, may not interfere with
a defensive player's opportunity to make a play on another
runner.
<b>PENALTY - The ball is dead, and the runner closest to HP
at the time of the interference shall be declared out. {In
our case BR since runner on 3rd has crossed HP and no longer
a runner} {In this case too, it would be the 3rd out and since
BR never reached 1B run could not score} Each base runner must
return to the last base legally touched at the time of the
interference,</B> NOT TOP.
Therefore, in your updated version, yes, the run would count
since we had no outs to start, got R2 going to 2nd and the
2nd out on the interference - BR. Run scored.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/papa.gif
glen

Roger: I'm going by the several plays under #238 in the 2002 OBR. These involve baserunning errors where a force is NOT removed even though a following runner has been put out. (Note the differences between NCAA and Fed/OBR, as well as the key element in Fed/OBR that the baserunning error must occur <i>before</i> the following runner is put out.)

In certain other plays, it is entirely possible that the defense could appeal in the "wrong" order and allow a run to score. Here's one off the top of my head:

R3 on 3B, R2 on 2B, 1 out. BR hits a double but misses first. R3 scores, and R2 scores but misses 3B. If the defense appeals R2 at 3B, then BR at 1B, the third out is a force and R3's run is nullified. If they appeal BR at 1B first, then R2's out for missing 3B (not a force) is the third out and R3's run would count.

I'll also check the ref you cited.

Greymule,
Section 238 deals with appeals on a forced runner being in effect even though a following runner was put out during playing action. (A good way to remember this is that generally the runner is considered to have missed his base before the put out on the following runner occured. Therefore the force remains on the appeal. Play 85-238 with the 6-4-3 DP is an aberation caused by the NCAA wording.)

Your play deals with the third out made by the BR at 1st. That is never a force out, but a different rule.

Section 12 deals with multiple outs on appeal and the order those outs are recorded. The order of multiple appeals definately matters!

Reread 238 and 12 and I'm sure you will agree.

Roger Greene

ps If you don't, maybe we should go to the BB side before Mike scolds us. (big G)

Roger: Apparently you are correct, but there are still some issues. (I know the BR out at 1B is technically not a force, too.) I will continue on a new thread on BB when I get the time. Thanks.

exact case book play
 

In searching for something else in the ASA case book, I found the exact play that whiskers brought up to start this thread:

5.5-17

R1 is on 3B and R2 is on 1B with one out when B3 hits a ground ball to F6 who throws to 2B for one out, and on the relay to 1B, R2 is called for interference. R1 had scored prior to the interference occurring. The next runner closest to home is B3 who [<i>sic</i>] the umpire calls out for the third out.

Ruling: Since this out is the batter-runner at 1B for the third out of the inning, the run will not count. (5-5B; 8-8P)

greymule,

Thanks for the reference. I looked, or at least I called
myself looking. Guess as Mike says, I need new reading
glasses. :D.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/papa.gif
glen