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-   -   Look back rule clarification (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/67900-look-back-rule-clarification.html)

MD Longhorn Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIBlueASA (Post 752952)
I don't know if I would call the look back violation as it seems as if an umpire error (batter runner going to first, then calling her back because her turn at bat is not over) has put the offensive team in jeopardy.

However, if that lead runner is going back and is tagged out, then I would call her out. She stole second base and was never told to go back, so her going back is her error. But if she goes all the way back to first with no play, then I'd say dumb move runner AND dumb move fielders.

This could have been avoided by the plate umpire being aware of the count and being proactive.
I can see the logic in calling her out. I can see the logic in saying the ball is dead... but there is no logic in your suggestion. Either the ball is live and she's out when she steps off 2nd, or the ball is dead and she stays. There's no in between as you're suggesting.

MD Longhorn Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIBlueASA (Post 752958)
I would hope the umpire does NOT send her back to first. I'm referring to the error by the umpire in what the batter runner did. If the umpire were PROACTIVE in the first place, and did their job, then we wouldn't have had the mess in the first place. Now that we do, when the umpire says, "batter, it's 3 balls, two strikes. Come back to the plate." and both runners start retreating, I don't think it is in the spirit of the rule to call the look back violation on the runner retreating to first. However, if the defense makes a play on her, and tags her out, the out would stand.

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my first post.
The umpire made no error. Please tell me you're not saying "Take your base" or something to that effect upon calling a fourth ball. Calling her back during a live ball opens up all sorts of other cans of worms.

MD Longhorn Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipwreck (Post 753047)
I need to be a little clearer. Right before that pitch, the PU announced that it was 2-2. After the next pitch came in making it actually 3-2, and the batter runner took off for first and runner on second headed for second. The PU held up the 3-2 count toward me, confirming in his head that that was truly the count, and I held up the same count. By the time all this transpired, the runners were on their perspective bases. So with this extra information what do we have? I see 3 possible. 1. Look back rule violation. 2. Leave runner at second with a steal and bring batter back. 3. Bring both batter and runner back. What do you all think? Dave
You have a LBR. (Was this 10U? 14U? College? You mention college rules - if THAT old you definitely have LBR.)

Dakota Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 753194)
... if THAT old you definitely have LBR.)
If not just out on the DMR rule! ;)

shipwreck Tue Apr 26, 2011 06:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 753194)
You have a LBR. (Was this 10U? 14U? College? You mention college rules - if THAT old you definitely have LBR.)
Not very good college ball, but never the less, college. Dave

MD Longhorn Tue Apr 26, 2011 01:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipwreck (Post 753386)
Not very good college ball, but never the less, college. Dave
Absotively, Posilutely 150% LBR. No question at all.

shipwreck Tue Apr 26, 2011 01:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 753515)
Absotively, Posilutely 150% LBR. No question at all.
OK, along those same lines. As umpires, should we ever let it get that far? When as umpires we see the BR take off for first and the other runner take off for second, do we kill it right there knowing there is confusion, or do we keep it live and rule as need be? I am afraid if we kill it, some OC could argue his runner was stealing second and we killed it, even though in this case we know she wasn't stealing. Dave

Dakota Tue Apr 26, 2011 02:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipwreck (Post 753528)
....or do we keep it live and rule as need be?...
That.

Tex Tue Apr 26, 2011 02:13pm
This situation has happened to me a few times before. Had this happened during the state tournament. After all base runners have stopped at their bases and before the coaches started yelling and the runners start moving, I called time and conferred with the base umpire, to be certain that my count was correct. The batter came back to finish her time at bat and the runner at 2nd base stays there (stolen base).

AtlUmpSteve Tue Apr 26, 2011 02:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipwreck (Post 753528)
OK, along those same lines. As umpires, should we ever let it get that far? When as umpires we see the BR take off for first and the other runner take off for second, do we kill it right there knowing there is confusion, or do we keep it live and rule as need be? I am afraid if we kill it, some OC could argue his runner was stealing second and we killed it, even though in this case we know she wasn't stealing. Dave
You have to keep it live and rule as need be in NCAA. If you kill that live play in NCAA, you will be wearing a coach. That violates rule 15-10.b.1, etc, that the umpire shall NOT suspend play while ANY play is in progress, and (b.4) at the request of players or coaches until ALL action in progress is completed.

Restating the count is appropriate; then stand back and let them play the game. If the defense knows to get the out at second, they get it; if the defense lets the runner "steal" second, that is their fault. If the runner steps off the base during live play and the ball in the circle, call the LBR out.

The NCAA also doesn't make the ball dead, necessarily, when an umpire handles "other" duties. Rule 15-10.a.2 only states that an umpire "MAY" suspend play to perform other duties not directly connected with the calling of plays. Only if the umpire called "time" would play be suspended; and that would be in error, according to 15-10.b.1.

MD Longhorn Tue Apr 26, 2011 02:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by shipwreck (Post 753528)
OK, along those same lines. As umpires, should we ever let it get that far? When as umpires we see the BR take off for first and the other runner take off for second, do we kill it right there knowing there is confusion, or do we keep it live and rule as need be? I am afraid if we kill it, some OC could argue his runner was stealing second and we killed it, even though in this case we know she wasn't stealing. Dave
You answered your own question. If we kill it, the OC could argue all sorts of things, and he'd be right. Unless you have a reason to call a dead ball, don't. Some teams TRY to confuse the opponent (within the rules), and this is not illegal. (And you DON'T know she wasn't stealing. You think it, and you may be right, but you don't KNOW it).

Keep the play live, and rule on what you see.

Tex Tue Apr 26, 2011 03:46pm
I was referring to FED rules, sorry.

clevbrown Tue Apr 26, 2011 09:25pm
My original thought was I was going to let her go as long as she continued back to first without stopping. However, after reading the ASA rule book...

ASA 8.7.T.2 LBR states "Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, the runner will be declared out if leaving the base"

Sounds like "Out" to me.


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