You Make The Call

[whiskers_ump]

Runners are on first and third bases with one out. The batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop who throws to second base for the second out. During the attempt to throw out the batter-runner, the runner who started on first base interferes with the throw. Meanwhile, the runner on third base has crossed home plate [before the interference]. Does the run count?

glen

[greymule]

Good question, whiskers, with the answer not as simple as some would think. Here's how I would call it in ASA. The runner closest to home (in this case the batter-runner, since the runner from 3B had crossed the plate) is out. Since the third out was made by the batter-runner before he reached 1B, the run does not count.

We had a discussion a while back about a similar play where the softball rule works to the advantage of the team that commits the infraction. Suppose it was bases loaded, one out, ground ball to F6, who throws to F4 for the force at 2B, and the runner from first interferes with the throw to 1B after the runner from 3B has crossed the plate. The runner closest to home (in this case, the runner who started at 2B) is out, but since that out isn't a force play, the run WOULD count. In baseball, of course, the out for interference still applies where the play was going to be (1B), so the run would NOT count.

I think the above play is an example of where the umpire should invoke the clause about a team not gaining an advantage by violating the rules. Suppose with bases loaded and one out, the BR hits a one-hopper to F6's left and falls down in the batter's box. F6 steps on 2B and takes his time to make sure of the throw to 1B, with BR just a few steps down the line. The runner from 3B crosses the plate. The runner who was on first then catches F6's throw before it gets to F3. Technically, the runner from 2B is out and the run scores, but I'm going to call the BR out and nullify the run.

[kono]

Originally posted by greymule
...I think the above play is an example of where the umpire should invoke the clause about a team not gaining an advantage by violating the rules. Suppose with bases loaded and one out, the BR hits a one-hopper to F6's left and falls down in the batter's box. F6 steps on 2B and takes his time to make sure of the throw to 1B, with BR just a few steps down the line. The runner from 3B crosses the plate. The runner who was on first then catches F6's throw before it gets to F3. Technically, the runner from 2B is out and the run scores, but I'm going to call the BR out and nullify the run.

Question: Is a runner who has crossed home plate still a runner?? Seems to me that there is more teeth in the argument that she can't be called out since she isn't a runner anymore. B/R out because of the interference. Don't count the run.

JMHO

-Kono

[Tap]

I think there are several ways to disallow the run if there was one out as in the original scenario. What if there were no outs and bases loaded -- could we disallow the run that already scored before the interference? Could we deem the runner on 3rd was closest to the plate based on position before the pitch?

[gsf23]

Sounds to me that in a situation like that that the runner scoring and the interference would be so close together that you could probably get away with saying that they runner hadn't crossed home yet.

I'm trying to picture the play in my mind and I just don't see how, if everything is played correctly, it would be obvious that the runner crossed before the interference. I think that it would be a close enough play that you could call the runner out at home.

[greymule]

With first and third, no outs, the run would count if it crossed the plate before the interference. The time of the interference, not the time of the pitch or anything else, is the determining factor. Of course, if the third out is a force, then no runs count, regardless of when any runs crossed.

A runner who crosses the plate is no longer a runner and can't be called out or sent back on interference that occurs afterward.

Interesting example of differences between ASA and OBR: R3 on 3B, R1 on 1B, one out. BR hits a double, moving R1 to 3B. R3 scored, but R1 missed 2B and BR missed 1B. In ASA, the defense must appeal 2B and then 1B for R3's run to be nullified. In OBR, the defense can appeal in any order; the run is nullified either way.

[Richardr10]

A runner who crosses the plate is no longer a runner and can't be called out or sent back on interference that occurs afterward.

__________________________________________________ __________

Same play first and third but shortstop throws home..throw is high runner slides in safe runner from first rounds second going to third. F2 goes to throw to third when runner that just scored grabs F2 leg and knocks her down. Would you call that runner out or would you let the run score?

[greymule]

Runs scores. Runner going to 3B is out. No penalty on (former) runner who scored, except possible ejection.

Generic play: runner scores, pulls out gun and shoots F2, who is in the act of making a play on another runner. Run scores, runner closest to home is out, and runner who fired gun is ejected.

Only in Fed can a runner who has scored be called out for later contact. (That's on a force play slide.) I think that's only Fed baseball, though, not softball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule


Interesting example of differences between ASA and OBR: R3 on 3B, R1 on 1B, one out. BR hits a double, moving R1 to 3B. R3 scored, but R1 missed 2B and BR missed 1B. In ASA, the defense must appeal 2B and then 1B for R3's run to be nullified. In OBR, the defense can appeal in any order; the run is nullified either way.

Speaking ASA

If any runner misses a base to which they were forced and properly appealed, it is considered a force play for the purpose of scoring a run. ASA also allows for a 4th out appeal. Either way, in your scenario, the run would not count.

The real differences are in the acronym:

Amateur SOFTBALL Association vs. Official BASEBALL Rules

[greymule]

The play is right from the ASA casebook. If the defense appeals 1B and then 2B, the run counts. With missed bases, unlike in OBR, the appeal at 1B removes the force at 2B, even though the force was in effect at the time the play began.

ASA does allow for a fourth-out appeal, but the defense cannot put a runner out for the second out and then put the runner out again for the fourth out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
The play is right from the ASA casebook. If the defense appeals 1B and then 2B, the run counts. With missed bases, unlike in OBR, the appeal at 1B removes the force at 2B, even though the force was in effect at the time the play began.

ASA does allow for a fourth-out appeal, but the defense cannot put a runner out for the second out and then put the runner out again for the fourth out.

Greymule is 100% correct. I misread the play. I don't know how on earth I confused "double" with anything else, but I did. Once the appeal is made at a previous base (in a progressive order) and upheld, the force is removed from all following bases.

My apologies, must need a new pair of eyes.

However, I stand by my opinion concerning softball rules v baseball rules



[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Jan 3rd, 2003 at 07:24 PM]

[Roger Greene]

Originally posted by greymule
In OBR, the defense can appeal in any order; the run is nullified either way.

Are you sure about that? Can you give a cite?

2002 BRD "OFF INTERP 13-12: PBUC STAFF: If the defense will make multiple appeals, when a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made "in the proper order.""

This is followed by an example play in which the run scores because appeals were made out of order and the statement "...To cancel the run the defense needed to appeal R1 before appealing B1."

This is treated the same OBR, NCAA and FED.

Roger Greene

[Edited by Roger Greene on Jan 4th, 2003 at 08:25 AM]

[Richardr10]

Runners are on first and third bases with one out. The batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop who throws to second base for the second out. During the attempt to throw out the batter-runner, the runner who started on first base interferes with the throw. Meanwhile, the runner on third base has crossed home plate [before the interference]. Does the run count?

back to the play but with no outs.

R3 crosses home Interference is called but batter-runner never reached first yet. Does run still count or do all runners go back to time of pitch base then apply rule?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Richardr10
Runners are on first and third bases with one out. The batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop who throws to second base for the second out. During the attempt to throw out the batter-runner, the runner who started on first base interferes with the throw. Meanwhile, the runner on third base has crossed home plate [before the interference]. Does the run count?

Speaking ASA, no

back to the play but with no outs.

R3 crosses home Interference is called but batter-runner never reached first yet. Does run still count or do all runners go back to time of pitch base then apply rule?

Speaking ASA, yes. I was a legally batted ball, why would you return to the T.O.P?

[Richardr10]

Because the batter-runner never reached first. The ball became dead on the interference before reaching first. Am I looking to deep into this?