Fed SB Third strike foul tip hits the catcher's glove, deflects off her chest protector, then back into her glove.
Strike out or foul ball????

foul ball
 

We have always maintained that if the ball does not go above the catcher's head, it is foul even if she catches it. Really the ump will determine--- does he like you or not..

foul ball or strike out
 

What you described is a foul ball. For it to be a strike, it must go DIRECTLY from the bat to the catcher's glove or hand. If it bounces off anything (including the catcher's chest protector), all you have is a foul.

DeeDee,
Sorry - if we like you or not does not impact on what we see and call...

Dan

foulball

Re: foul ball or strike out
 

Really? And here I thought it would be the same as ASA. I guess that's one more thing Fed umpires must deal with.

So the softball rule is different than the baseball rule?


I ask because, in baseball, because the tip hit the catcher's glove first, and was subsequently caught, it would be a foul tip, strike three. (Rule 2.00)

Speaking Fed, (and every other softball code I'm aware of) if a pitched ball is struck by the bat, and goes sharp and directly to the hand or mit of F2, and is then legally caught by F2, it is a foul tip, live ball.

In the sitch posted, we have a foul tip. The batted ball went directly to the catchers glove (mit) and was then caught by F2. (see 2-25-2) It doesn't matter that it rebounded off her protector after touching her mit or hand and was then caught.

If it rebounded off her protecctor before touching her hand, it would be a foul ball. (However by interpertation it would not be a caught foul fly unless it was higher than the batter's head)

The difference with this rule in Fed softball and Fed baseball,is that in Fed baseball any fielder may catch the fould tip, as long as it first went directly and sharply from the bat to F2's hand or mit. (see Fed baseball 2-16-2)

Roger Greene

[Edited by Roger Greene on Oct 4th, 2002 at 02:28 PM]

A couple of months ago, we had a discussion on exactly how "not higher than the batter's head" was to be applied. Apparently, it is irrelevant and confusing and should be deleted. It is never the determining factor. Obviously, balls higher than the batter's head could be foul tips (batter swings at a pitch over her head, catcher reaches up over the batter's head, ball goes directly into catcher's glove). Also, most people felt that a ball fouled not sharp and direct but perceptibly slowed and deflected to the side could be "not higher than the batter's head" but still be caught for an out.

Two plays from the ASA case book:

1-58 (FP Only) The batter, with a 1-ball, 1-strike count, bunts the ball in front of the plate. The catcher lunges and catches the ball before it touches the ground. The ball did not go higher than the batter's head, so the umpire rules this a foul tip and returns the batter to the batter's box with a 1-ball, 2-strike count. Ruling: This is not a foul tip, for the ball did not go directly to the catcher's glove from the bat. Because the catcher went to the ball, this should be ruled a legal catch, similar to F3 or F5 making the catch.

All that matters is whether the ball goes sharp and direct to the hand/mitt and is legally caught as opposed to the catcher going to the ball. Of course, in the play above, since the catcher caught the ball in front of the plate, the ball was in fact fair. A fair ball cannot be a foul tip, but the reasoning ASA used is "the catcher went to the ball."

1-59 The ball goes directly from the bat, (a) touches the catcher's glove or hand and then rebounds from the catcher or his equipment, (b) from the bat, strikes the catcher's body, his protective equipment or the umpire. In both cases the ball rebounds into the glove or hand of the catcher and is held. Ruling: In (a) it is a foul tip and a strike, in (b) it is a foul ball. The ball cannot be a foul tip if it first touches anything other than the catcher's glove or hand.

Re: Re: foul ball or strike out
 

Mike,

Please see greymule's post below...

There is no difference in this situation between ASA/FED/NCAA.

Dan

In Fed, as has already been stated, this is a foul tip.
Also in ASA.

For a batted ball to be a foul tip, it must satisfy ALL of the following:

1) Go directly from the bat to the catcher's glove or hands (Fed adds "directly <u>and speedily</u>");
2) Not go higher than the batter's head;
3) Is legally caught by the catcher.

Note the definition does not require that the ball be caught on this initial contact with the glove. What happens between 1) and 3) is irrelevant as long as all three conditions are met.

"Directly from the bat to the catcher's hands or glove" by definition leaves out the case where the catcher's glove goes to the ball. If the catcher had to make a play to catch the ball (e.g. lunge to the side, to the front, etc.), it is not a foul tip, whether the ball goes higher that the batter's head or not.

If in some 3rd world play setup the ball does go higher than the batter's head, but still goes directly from the bat to the glove, it is still not a foul tip, by definition.

ASA and Fed define foul tip almost exactly the same:

ASA: A batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher.
Fed: . . . a batted ball that goes directly from the bat to the catcher's mitt or hand not higher than the batter's head and is legally caught by the catcher.

Dakota: My Fed 2002 softball rule book does not include "speedily" in the definition. Where do you see that?

According to ASA's case book ruling, the catcher going to the ball is the determining factor in whether the ball went "directly" or not. Therefore, "not over the batter's head" is irrelevant. If on a pitch that resembled anything like a strike the ball was hit over the batter's head, then the catcher would have to go to the ball to catch it. Now there is that one play where the batter foul tips a pitch that's already over her head (not so third-world, either; I've seen it happen more than once). Does ASA include the "not over the batter's head" clause simply to ensure that we call an out in that particular case? Hard to believe.

What if ASA defined a foul tip as "a batted ball that goes directly from the bat to the catcher's mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher"? Except for that one "third-world" play, what play would we call any differently?

Re: foul ball
 

That has to be the absolute dumbest and least informed statements I have ever heard on this board!

Scott

Okay, do you live in Savannah, Scott? I am on both sides, I promise and I also know that here, the blue calls what sometimes gives him more a warm fuzzy than the other. I have never been accused of stupidity or ignorance. Let's all be realistic. Right or wrong, it is a game we have to play here. I don't argue with blue because I know the rules that we must play by(real and political/good ole' boy). And it's okay. Mostly, they are very, very fair. And you know, being human, we all make mistakes, so.... Hell, I certainly have. I have been playing/coaching/PUing for the past 25 years. Uninformed, I don't think so. Truthful, yes, though obviously, you don't like it.

Re: Re: Re: foul ball or strike out
 

Dan,

I am aware of that which is why I responded in the manner I did after the posts previous to mine, including yours (above), noted this was a foul ball as opposed to a foul tip.

In the 2001 book - the one I had handy. Sorry.

I'll admit it is hard to cook up a case where the "over the batter's head" is the only condition of the three that is not met.

Also, this part of the rule is a constant nuisance with coaches, since they think that <u>if</u> it is below the batter's head, it <u>must</u> be a foul tip.

They way I call this, if the catcher is moving to the <u>pitch</u>, and the tipped ball goes into her mitt, then it is a foul tip. If, on the other hand, she is moving to the batted ball, then it is a caught fly ball.

Suppose a high pitch that is a pitcher's error - i.e. the catcher was not set up for the high pitch, so the catcher reaches up / stands up in reaction to the pitch. The batter swings at the pitch above her head and tips the ball, which goes directly into the catcher's mitt.

Foul tip or catch?

By rule, catch, since it was above the batter's head.

I don't like it either. There is a <u>big</u> difference between making an error - even an error because the umpire doesn't know the rules - and being biased.

Your original statement is broadly stated, as if all (or most) umpires will make these kinds of calls based on bias. That is an insulting thing to say to the vast majority of umpires who call the game with integrity.

Since you state you have been an umpire for years, I'll interpret your remarks as applying to yourself only.

That is exactly the way that I took that statement Tom! I am glad to see that you feel the same way that I felt about it. Any umpire who is working a game anywhere, Savannah included, who admits to being biased and still calling games is not only ignorant, but a disgrace to the profession of umpiring. Not to mention the fact that they are conciously ripping off the association that is paying their game fees.

Scott

Honestly, reading over JustDHaley's comments again, I get the feeling that herein is a frustrated player that wants to blame all of their inequities on the officiating.

Scott

From this lively discussion, I hope everyone can tell the difference between Atlanta Umpires and Georgia Umpires. After calling with both on ASA as well as NFHS, I can tell you that the Atlanta Metro Umpires are better umpires all around. Better trained and better attitudes towards the game.
Hey Dee Dee, learn how to be a better umpire, work and learn from us sometime here in the Big 'A'. I hope my daughter doesn't have to play in any games that Savannah umpires call or you'll see me climbing the fence. LOL
.......and as to this topic, FOUL BALL!!

I have a question related to this statement: Why is situation b a foul ball and not an out? I can understand that the ball cannot be caught for an out if it rebounds off of the umpire, but why not if off of the catcher's equipment? If a ball was hit and rebounded off of any other player and caught before it hit the ground, it would be considered an out. Why not in this specific situation? I just want to understand the reasoning behind the rule.

That's right. A ball going directly from the bat to the catcher's mask and then to the mitt cannot be a foul tip, but it supposedly <i>could</i> be an out if "the catcher went to the ball." In theory, a catcher moving toward a ball slowed and spun off to the right could be hit in the mask or chest protector first and then catch the ball for an out, even if it did not go over the batter's head.

We had a play yesterday where the batter swung on a 1-0 count and slowed a ball considerably. The ball—definitely not over the batter's head—spun over the catcher's left shoulder, slowed enough that she had a chance to dive backward toward the plate ump, who had time to move and give her room. The catcher dived but couldn't quite hold the ball, and some fans, hoping for an out, moaned. The offensive coach looked over and told them, "Wasn't over the batter's head."

I think something's rotten in the state of ASA's case book. Case book play 1-58 is the only instance I can find in ASA where "the catcher went to the ball" is mentioned. It claims to define a foul tip but instead deals with an obviously FAIR ball. Somehow, I suspect that no fair ball can be ruled a foul tip.

I'm going to try to find an authoritative opinion on this.

ASA 8.2.C: BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT...when, after a fly ball is hit, the ball is caught by a fielder before it touches the ground, any object or person other than a defensive player.

ASA 1: A fly ball is any ball batted into the air.

Please note there is no height nor fair/foul requirements and if the ball wasn't batted to the ground, though many would consider this a "technicality", it could be sold as a fly ball. In turn, 8.2.C would then apply.

And if you think about it, most line drives back to the pitcher do not get above the batter's head.

The only place I see a reference to the ball being over the batter's head is a negative one under the definition of Foul Tip.

What about paragraph G under the definition of a foul ball?

Basically, that says that a would be foul tip that hits the catcher's equipment first and is then caught, is a foul ball.

This is situation "b" in the case play, and it uses the phrase "not higher than the batter's head..."

Tom,

Duh! No wonder I didn't see paragraph G, it was right under my nose!

You didn't note which case play to which you are refering, however, 1-58 does not have an a/b scenario. But, nowhere in 1-59 does it mention the ball going higher than the batter's head.

There are irrelevant, though. In the definitions and case book, there is still nothing excluding any fielder including the catcher from going after and catching a foul ball for an out.

So, Mike....what would you call a batted ball that went directly back into the catchers chest protector without touching the catchers glove or hand and was caught by the catcher before it hit the ground?

By definition in 1-59b, it's a foul ball. A foul ball is dead and cannot be played on. This would contradict your statement above.

I do not like this interpretation because it makes an exception for one player. I say if the catcher has the reflexes to catch a ball as I described above, reward him/her by calling the out.

Couple of things...

I apologize for my fractured syntax, above. The phrase "higher than the batter's head" is used in Rule 1 - FOUL BALL - G, not in the case play.

The case play I was referring to was the one referenced earlier in this thread - 1-59(b), where the batted ball is a foul ball by definition.

Finally, not to be overly anal, but it does help us keep things clear - there is no such thing as a caught foul ball for an out. There can be a caught foul ball (e.g. a re-bound off the back stop), but that ball is dead, and it is not a legal catch for an out. And, there can be a caught fly ball over foul territory, but that is not a foul ball, it is a live ball out.

Rule 1-FOUL BALL-G defines the special case of a "foul tip" (so to speak) that rebounds off the catcher's equipment and is then caught by "another fielder," as a foul ball. Case play 1-59(b) explains that this "another fielder" also includes the catcher.

And this is what many people seem to forget. They often think that because a fly ball is caught over foul territory, that it is already a foul.

I guess it is easy to allow the visual senses to sometimes drive the way we think.

Scott

Andy,

You have a very good point and I did think of it after posting, but decided not to edit. However, as I stated before, the definition of a fly ball is a ball hit into the air and I stated that if it wasn't hit down to the ground, it must be up into the air. I failed to allow for the ball which stayed relatively parallel to the ground before contacting an umpire, player, fence or whatever. My fault of omission.

This is definitely a HTBT and see it, but if I have a ball which raises above the point of contact and the catcher makes a catch, I believe you can rule an out. Please take into consideration that I am not suggesting an umpire "guess" or suppose this as an out. I would definitely have to see this ball rise (not necessarily above the batter's head as that is not a requirement) off the bat to rule an out.

Darned if I didn't have TWO of these plays on the last weekend of the season. Batter bunts, and the ball spins off to the catcher's right, never going more than about 4 feet off the ground. The catcher takes a step and lunges to her right to spear the ball just before it would have hit the ground. I called an out. Naturally, the offensive coach claimed the ball had not gone over the batter's head. I just said, "The catcher went to the ball, coach," and he bought it.

Later in the same game. A girl bunted and the ball just died in the air right at the spot it was bunted—it rose an inch or two above the bat and dropped straight down. It even stopped spinning. The catcher lunged forward and almost caught it, but hit it just barely on the foul side of the plate. I was glad she didn't catch it.

On balls like that, maybe you rule that if the catcher leaves the box to make the catch, it's an out. If she stays in the box, it's a foul tip. Still not sure.

To me a foul tip is a ball that responds as though it was not touched by the bat at all; that is, it more or less continues along it's original path into the catcher's glove and is caught. I have yet to see a catcher with quick enough reflexes to catch a tipped ball that deviates more than an inch or so from it's original trajectory. If the ball's trajectory (that's direction and speed) is altered significantly enough to allow the catcher to move her glove and/or her body to catch it, that is a caught fly ball and an OUT.

I'm not sure if my description makes the issue any clearer for the3 rest of you folks, but I know it when I see it.

SamC

I would agree, Sam. But there's this "not over the batter's head" clause in both the ASA and the Fed definition. A ball bunted foul off to the side and caught meets their criteria for being a foul tip. A pitch that is over the batter's head and "tipped" into the catcher's glove does not fit their definition and therefore must be an out, even if it acts as if it never touched the bat at all. Without the "over the head" clause, I'd have no problem at all knowing a foul tip when I saw it.

Live versus Dead
 

Is there such a thing as a foul tip in Slowpitch? I don't think so, but haven't done any in probably 5 years.

I have never seen a foul tip (baseball and Fastpitch softball) that did anything other than go directly into the catcher's mitt - bobbled possibly, but directly. Directly, as in a straight line - the catcher was gong to catch the ball independent of the batter and the change in flight of the pitch, due to the batter's contact, was so minimal that the ball still went into the catcher's mitt. It is nearly instantaneous - no pop-ups.

An important difference that hasn't been discussed much was pointed out by Roger Green. A foul ball is a dead ball. A foul tip is a live ball; runners can still advance and plays can be made by the catcher after a foul tip e.g. a throw to 2nd.

I have never seen anykind of a pop-up in a fastpitched game that went below the batter's head and was caught by the catcher - they always hit the backstop or me. Catchers are not quick enough to move their mitt during that last two feet of the pitch's flight. Perhaps it is possible but it seems very far-fetched.

Re: Live versus Dead
 

I've added the numbering for my convenience ;)

WRT number (1), I have had interesting discussions with coaches and game situations on this point. Say the steal is on, but the batter hits a foul tip. Runner makes it to the next base. Two things will usually happen from here. First, offensive coach thinks the ball is dead and sends his runner back. Defense tags her out. All h--- breaks out with the called out. If that doesn't happen, the we'll have runner staying put and the defensive coach starts raising h--- because it was a "foul ball." I've had both of these happen.

WRT number (2), I've seen lunging or quick-reflexes catches several times where the ball stayed below the batter's head. Again, this presented me with an opportunity for some "face time" with the coach.

If in doubt - it is a foul tip. But, if I clearly see the catcher making the play (glove to the ball instead of ball to the glove), I've got an out.