Your chance to wipe out a bad mechanic
 

OK... it's you're chance. You get to wave your wand and pick one bad mechanic and erase it from the minds of the entire country of umpires.

Do you pick BU's who have to go remind the new F1 that there's a runner on 2nd, 1 out?

Do you pick umpires who run around the field with the DDB signal, holding it there until they get to the base they're protected to?

Do you pick PU who has to go chat with the crowd between half-innings?

Do you pick the PU who yells PLAY after every foul ball so loudly and so late that he's nearly caused illegal pitches?

Or something else entirely - what's you're umpire pet peeve you wish you could fix?

Me ... I'm going with the first one, wishing I had 4 wishes...

I don't have a problem with this one as long as the umpire isn't running around like a chicken with a broken wing.

I don't get four choices?

For some reason the first one irritates me the most.

The other one I don't like is the PU who never signals play.

PU who calls strike and then comes out to me on the appeal. :(
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Class Action Settlement

BU's who signal&announce the number of outs to the defense.

"31" instead of "3 balls, 1 strike!"

Or how about the PU screaming "foul ball" when it goes 40 feet over the fence?

Removing my mask with my right hand (20+ years of a catcher habit is hard to break)

Or...the PU that always signals foul tip when the batted ball is actually a foul ball.

I do that and won't change. I tried, not comfortable with it, not changing it. I'll take the ding and move on. If that is the biggest flaw in my game, I'll take it.;)

Mostly when it is the over the home run fence!!! :eek:

My wish is to end the swinging third strike - pull the bow and bang 'em out. That is the one that puts me over the edge.

Or the other side of the coin, a BU who responds to a player's ask.

And who signal foul balls, especially prematurely.

And signal the count when not announced by PU.

Ugh yes. And PU's who signal or call foul ball prematurely.

Out of the four you listed, this would probably be the one I'd pick, but I'd expand it to include anyone who spends too much time chatting it up with players, coaches, and spectators.

If I were picking one of my own, I'd say it would be umpires who want to use baseball mechanics during softball games. Or maybe the slow pitch umpires who keep calling pitches "deep", "flat", or "plate", using the infamous double fist pump immortalized by piano playing umpires all over the world. Or slow pitch umpires working solo who don't move out from behind the plate except to grab their umbrella from the backstop when it starts to rain. Yes, I saw that this year.

I've been wanting to ask a related question for a while now, and this kinda jarred my memory. I've worked with a bunch of people who want to signal outs all the time, using what I refer to as the "baseball signal" for outs, with both arms out to your sides flashing the corresponding fingers for outs. You can see a lot of that during the LLWS. I'm not saying it's a formal baseball signal, but that's what I tell rookies when they start flashing that at me during games. Me personally, I prefer a discreet signal between my partner and me if there is a question as to the number of outs. If I get a 1-2-3 inning, I'm not flashing outs any time. What do you guys do?

Yeah, I forgot another one. A BU who calls a ball rolling up the first base line a foul ball while I'm waiting to make my call until it actually is foul.

Of all things, this is one of the things that change for me most by area. In NW Dallas, PU would briefly hold a number up before the batter steps in, every time the outs change. Here, MOST umpires hold a fist or 1 or 2 fingers to the right side about hip high after every time we have an out, or if they are verifying with their partner - OR - if IFF in effect, about half hold right arm over chest and signal 0 or 1 with the left hand, and the other half (self included) hold the right arm over the chest with 0 or 1 on THAT hand.

Worst one I've had was a ball that was hit very short and rolled back to land and settle on the plate. Just as I start to point fair, my partner gives a huge "FOUL BALL!!!!!!"

Luckily, neither coaches nor parents complained and we moved on. between innings, before I have a chance to say anything, he wanders in and says, "Dude, that's YOUR call - you gotta make it!" All sorts of retorts came to mind, but I resisted and just said, "Yes, it's my call and that ball was fair - we'll look it up after the game," and even this he was pretty pissed about.

Needless to say he was very sheepish when he learned he was wrong.

"Dude, that's your call..." What was he...16?

um ... older than me!!

Remembered another one...

The BU who takes a nice leisurely stroll when changing positions.

I did this for almost as long as I umpired.
My left hand is kinda screwed up so I use the right and switch it over.
When I went to the Advanced Camp and for ISF, nobody noticed it until they looked at films after the games.

My pet peeve is the ump, doesn't matter what position, that has to try and be a "pal" to the players.
You ain't out there to be there friend, just call the game without being overly officious.

Well, that would depend on the situation. If play is suspended and there is time to "stroll" to position, use it to take a breath if needed.

If you don't, at least show a little effort to move into positon as to not delay the flow of the game.

We had an older umpire during the summer while working the plate, would consistently bring on the field and hang on the fence a big beach towel and a folding chair along with about a 2 gallon water jug. This was fastpitch and of course he wore shorts and even if he wore pants, the shin guards were on the outside. Dave

That's the UIC's fault for allowing that to happen.

Yea, just like almost everything that is posted on this subject. The UIC should stop most of these things. Dave

Here's another one. When using a HSM, the only time the PU has the mask off is during the plate conference.

HSM? Sorry, I can't read shorthand.

Hockey Style Mask

Umpire's who don't/won't run.

I'm not talking about an ump who physically can't run anymore (age/health) or someone coming off of an injury or surgery. That's a different topic.

I'm talking the guy who plant's himself either behind the plate or out in A, B, or C and who's idea of running to get into position to cover a play is some combination of long strides and odd angles.

I would get rid of trailing the running on an obvious base hit and add more "outside" work. I would adopt the NCAA mechanics. I know, its one of those "b-b-b-but we gotta teach 35K umpires and many are really dumb" things...

Okay, now I'm going to take you to task on that statement:eek:

Name one positive point of working the rim that give the umpire an advantage that is not available in the I/O method.

Mind you, the biggest argument Henry via Bernie received (and is wasn't from me!) when moving the SP BU to the B was, 'since when does ASA base mechanics on making the umpire's life easier and saving his legs?' And as simple as that change was, or should have been, there are still umpires today who cannot grasp starting near F4.

ASA SP. R1 on 1B only with a pop fly to shallow left field. Whiplash sucks when checking the runner on a tag-up, because you KNOW F4 is playing halfway to the fence.

Are you saying that keeping more of the field/play in front of you is not advantageous?

I agree with Mike. Can you be more specific as to what kind of play you think the Rim gives you more of the field in front of you than I/O?

I just gave one...

You did, he didn't... and I'm still trying to find out what F4 is doing in Left Field and why I can't see it from I/O... but that's another question. Isn't our job the runner on this play - PU has the catch - and a good PU knows you need his verbal for timing's sake. I'm not convinced outside is a very good spot to see both anyway - you still need PU's help on that.

(OTOH - how often does R1 on first tag on a play to "shallow left" anyway? Shouldn't he be halfway?)

Single runner at 2nd, base hit to OF, play at plate. Where would you rather be for the catcher's throw to back to 2nd?

There are others, but you only asked for 1.

F4 isn't in left field, F4's playing their usual spot: practically (often literally) in the grass. If I'm in B, I have to cover about 40 feet to get inside, buttonhook, then hope to hell I've got enough time to find where the ball's going. Once I see the fielder first touch the ball, I now have to turn >180º in order to pick up R1.

Staying back closer to B, you still have a wide angle between the ball and R1, but you don't have one or the other completely out of your field of vision like you do when you buttonhook. R1 is at least in your peripheral vision, and you get a better feel for the timing.

98% of the time, the throw is coming to 2B, and the play ends there. If the throw is that far off target, you can still come inside to pick up the play at 3B should that arise.

And "shallow" left field would be a 200 foot hit. That's shallow for SP. I get plenty of runners tagging up and going on the first touch, especially if it looks like the fielder might have to dive or make the catch in an off balance manner.

And when the throw is off target and goes to the outfield? How do you cover 3B?

In your sitch, I'm inside, but I'm off of the "center line" that goes from HP to 2B. On a runner coming from 1B, I'm more towards the 2B/3B baseline. On a runner that's already touched 2B, I'm more towards the 1B/2B baseline. I'm inside, but I'm out of the way.

I'm not saying that rimming's the end all, be all. Nor am I saying that the inside/outside theory is bad. Each has their merits, each has their flaws. I would just like the ability to pick my poison.

I would move inside and head to 3rd.

Being out of the way is fine, but you will not have as much in front of you, nor be able to see the play develop. Plus you will not be in as good of a position to see the play at second because you are "out of the way".

I agree. ASA does not. I think that was Wade's point.

Inside toward shortstop ... wouldn't you? PERFECT spot to see the tag, the foot, and the bag all at once.

I know you were using this example as a vote for outside... but do you REALLY think that's a better view on this play?

What? That is the perfect spot to be in. From behind there's a lot of opportunities to be blocked from either the tag or the foot hitting the bag (or obstruction for that matter by the SS's feet).

I will admit that in my area I do rim on one and only one play - and only because I've asked my UIC and have approval (others do this here too). When R1 from first is heading to 2nd on a WP or PB - and there's no chance of a play at 2nd, but a decent chance of a play at 3rd. I'd rather stay ahead of the runner than wait and cross in.

Yes, but now you've got some catching up to do because you're trailing the runner, which is the absolute worst place to be when making a call.


Actually, I don't have a problem seeing it develop. If the ball is at the plate, I know I need to be off to one side or another on a baseline. If the runner has already touched 2B, I should be closer to baseline between 1B and 2B, ready to cover 3B if necessary. If the runner is coming from 1B into 2B, I should be closer to the baseline between 2B and 3B.

In both of those cases, I have an easy time of getting a good 90º to the tag, and I don't have nearly as much distance to cover if the runner should I need to cover 3B.

I understand both sides to the coin: ASA needs to get almost 50k umpires (according to their website) up-to-speed with good techniques, but there are other advanced ways of covering plays.

The problem comes when you have an advanced umpire with an inexperienced one. Whose mechanics should dictate the other's behavior?

I thought the issue was what keeps more of the field/play in front of you. I don't see how jerking your head back and forth from home to second as the play at second develops then trying to move back "in the way" to see it is more advantageous than taking the runner from 1st to second from the outside.

And yes, I REALLY do think it's a better view of the play.

1B to 2B, yes, that's fine. However, you're still behind the runner if they should attempt to advance to 3B on an errant throw.

I'm not sure how far behind I'd be, unless they neither slide nor slow up into the bag. That slight risk is by far out weighed by having more of the entire sequence in front of me. Besides, PU doesn't have anything left to do.

When working ASA it's a moot point.

When not, I would think the more advanced official would suggest doing some things differently and explaining why. That's what we do at every camp I've been a part of.

You're still talking only about seeing the play at second. The discussion is about keeping everything in front of you.


I quess your UIC doesn't mind if the PU just hangs out at home. Maybe someone should explain to him/her, and you for that matter, that the subsequent play at 3rd should be covered by the PU.

Unfortunately, since I do live in the Houston area, this wouldn't surprise me of some of the UICs/assignors I know.

I thought the discussion was about which was better. I prefer, on this play, getting a better angle on the relevant play rather than keeping everything in front of me at the risk of being blocked (and behind the play should it develop toward third).

Wow, that was uncalled for.

We are all aware that this is normally PU's responsibility. However, if this is discussed at pregame it's not an issue - and it saves PU a few steps - probably a little more important down in 100 degree 100% humidity land than elsewhere.

Assuming there are no other runners, taking the last runner to 3B should always be the BU's responsibility. PU should be preparing for a play at the plate. Priorities.

But we're not talking about keeping what this association or that association wants. We're talking about what WE want as officials. So no, it's not a moot point. :)

That can be dangerous if done with a truly inexperienced umpire. You'd have to pre-game it extensively and in an environment where you can afford to make those adjustments. Doing this in the finals would be bad timing.

Not to mention the fact that first and foremost, our main concern as veteran umpires tasked with bringing up the rookies is to give them the building blocks from which to grow. By starting off doing something different from the prescribed mechanics, you're not doing them any favors as a mentor.

Yes, and we should be ready for subsequent plays. Never compromise getting a good look at a play if it means getting behind the runner at your next play. It may work for 9 out of 10 plays, but it's that 10th play that'll bite you in the @$$.

Yes, the PU and BU are a team. And it's a team that works in priorities. As far as I'm concerned, the priorities on the bases start with home plate and work their way backwards. This is why the BU takes the trailing plays at 3rd, as well as the last runner or batter-runner. A blown call at 2nd or 3rd doesn't sting quite so badly as a blown call at home plate.

Won't even touch this one with a 10 foot pole, especially considering there are involved parties present on this board.

Inside so I'm not making a call from behind the play. I don't know about you, but I don't have a problem staying out of possible throwing lanes and still be set up to see a throw, tag and play; And in position to easily take the runner to 3rd should there be a misplay at 2B.

The play at the plate is over, hence the throw back to 2nd.

ASA isn't concerned about what WE want as umpires. That's why it's moot.

You said we are not keeping what "this association or that association wants", so what prescription are we going by? Why teach a new umpire mechanics only to try to un-teach those mechanics later?

So the next "possible" play is more important that the one right in front of us. Interesting!

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what this means.

To say that I am sorry if I offended anyone would be disingenuous. And no, I am not an "involved party".

That is not always true and is part of the falacy.

How is the back side 90 behind the play? Where do you make a call from on a steal of 2nd?

I don't know about you IRISH, but from the C slot with a runner on 2nd, on a base hit, I'm busting it over to pick up the BR as he/she rounds 1st. So, are you saying that you can be inside, following the runner to 2nd, seeing the play at home and the throw back to 2nd, moving to the SS side of 2nd to get the best view of the play while staying out of the throwing lane? Please.

Of course, the only way I could see all of this take place from the field is by being outside to begin with. I thought the we were talking about which position was more advantageous to keeping things in front of us. Right?

What is "the " falacy"?

The falacy is when people preach about having everything in front of you. Unless the umpire works from foul territory, they are not going to have everything in front of them any more than an umpire working I/O.

You know, this isn't anything new to me. I was working outside in the 90's for BP. It took a lot for the crews to digest since there was little to no training, but we all got it by the second day. Then again, that was national qualified umpires in a three-umpire system. But we also learned that it did not fit every situation even when some others would prescribe it.

And I have worked it recently in some local womens/18U games, but not exclusively. The problem that I see often are umpires who take the mechanic to the grave whether the situation calls for an adjustment or not.

I don't think I ever said that outside was ALWAYS the best or only option. That would be extemely short-sighted.

You were the one that challenged anyone to come up wtih a situation where rimming was advantageous to I/O. So who is taking a mechanic to the grave?

I have not seen where ASA allows for much "adjustment" anyway.

Often from directly behind 2B, since the 90 across the front of the base isn't always, in sme areas rarely, the location of the tag. But I would always prefer to have an inside look at a tag play than have to make a call from the backside where you may not actually see a tag or lose a dropped ball.

Hell, that's easy. Why do you think you have to "bust" inside. Once SS clears, I simply move just inside the diamond, watch the BR touch 1st and am set to follow that player into 2B and almost be in a 90 looking across the front of the base and on the same side as the ball and player making a tag. If a throw is coming from the OF, I'm right there. If the throw is coming from 3B, I'm inside the diamond out of the throwing lane. If the throw is coming from home, I'm still to the catcher's left and she has a clear throwing lane.

I disagree. Being on the outside of a play is no more advantageous since it will often place the runner between the umpire and the ball.

But lets talk about keeping everything in front of you. IMO, this really isn't going to happen in any more cases from the outside than from the inside. Why are people worried about keeping a ball rolling to the fence in front of you. Big deal, you turn your head to watch the BR hit 1B, you have to do that from the outside, also, unless you are working in foul territory and, unless you are in a 3-umpire format and preparing to rotate home, you shouldn't be there on a ball to the OF.

I have no problem with qualified umpires working the system when the situation fits. I do have a problem with people who act like this is some type of super-mechanic that is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

You must have one helluva guilty conscience. Did I say you?

Well, folks can scoff all they please, but Chuck said it earlier. Training that many people to execute an advanced method and being able to recognize when it would be helpful is problematic. I've said it before on this board and I'll repeat what BP said. ASA needs to forget about the Advanced Umpire School (now Camp) and replace it with a School for Advanced Umpiring.

Most of the umpires I see stay outside do so out of laziness and god help the team who cuts a throw home and shoots it back to 3B 'cause there ain't gonna be an umpire there to make the call.

So if the BR doesn't go to 2nd, you are standing there "just inside the diomand" making a call on any play at 1st from 60' away?


Working the system when the situation fits is what makes an umpire. It's a shame ASA doesn't feel the same way. I'm pleasantly surprised to see you off the reservation.

What?


So you teach them a inferior method and turn them loose, never to be heard from again. Great plan.
Throw back to 3rd? You'll have to explain where you got thiat from.

I guess the majority of college officials are lazy for recognizing the benefit of staying outside in certain situations. Thank goodness the rumor about an NCAA/ASA relationship was just that. I would hate to have a gaggle of ASA SP geese decide what mechanics are used to determine my readiness for my next post-season assignment.

Officially hijacked.

Here we go again. You offer a scenario, someone responds to that scenario and you want to change it to show it doesn't fit your snake oil sales pitch. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

Again, the diamond isn't that big. If there was a possible play at 1B, I would adjust for that situation.

I'm nowhere I haven't been in my 44 years in blue.

No too smart, are ya? Where was that mentioned? BTW, have you ever had the job of recruiting and training umpires for local and state play? I mean really train them, run a school and multiple clinics just to work the local league games? Are you aware that quite a few don't want the advanced training and many just will not attend clinics. So, do you suggest we have multiple sets of mechanics for different levels of competition? To quote my buddy, Andrew Sheppard, "how's the view from the cheap seats?"

No, I don't. Don't think it was that hard to understand. After all, Wang got it.

Really? Again, you read things that are not there and cannot comprehend some of the simple things that are. Well, I'm not a fan of seafood, especially red herring.

Before I wrap this one up, let me just state that there is nothing wrong with the I/O mechanics. Most 3rd graders could easily pick it up with some of the training provided, it isn't hard and does not put any umpire in a more precarious position on the field than any other method regardless of level of play.

Say hi to Major Tom the next time you see him floating around out there.

Exactly.

Disagree with the almighty IRISHMAFIA too much or question the greatness of his beloved organization, and he, invariably, will resort to personal insults and questioning your intelligence.

I'm a bit surprised. By this time he normally has called someone Bubba.

It has nothing to do with legs.

In a 3 man championship play system, there is absolutely no reason or advantage for 1B to come inside the circle on balls hit to center or left. The only thing that can happen is once that ball is immediately in, you could lose the ball... with worst case being - the umpire is in the line of fire... or "dancing" with players because you are in the way.

There is no reason at all for rabbit to bust inside on most plays. From the line or the rim, they have ideal positioning to work most plays from outside.

The ball IS coming back. ASA insist on jumping in, then jumping back out. This is unnecessary movement that causes balls to be lost by the BU, umpires to be caught in no mans land and umpires to find themselves in throwing lanes.

Personally, I would agree that rimming would not be appropriate in a two umpire system. I think that simply alleviates all together the concerns rimming brings up with "missing umpires"... for example .. if you rim on an obvious hit.. but it gets screwed up (bobbled, whatever), you can find yourself chasing a runner to two or even 3. Thats not a problem in 3 man IMO.

The book is for championship play and ASA is ready to build on their 3 man systems, I think. That is what I see by the crews I've been working with anyway. ASA works championship 3 man like its 2 man with an extra umpire instead of taking advantage of the system.

Absolutely. What's the problem? You have the perfect angle - distance is overrated.

Please explain how being just inside and on the SS side of 2B to make a call on a tag play at 2B equals a perfect angle for a play on a runner returning to 1B.

Also, the "distance is overrated" mindset is not one that would be welcomed on the field with me as a partner or evaluator.

I realize at this point you're just being belligerent because you want to... but come on. Really? I don't think anyone implied that the umpire would remain stationary. That is a perfect spot to be. The ball will take you to the play, and you ARE allowed to move.

If you had to sacrifice one for the other, would you rather have perfect distance and imperfect angle, or imperfect distance and perfect angle.

Distance is overrated - I'm not advocating laziness, and I'm not saying it's unimportant. Just overrated. Angle is more important.

As you can see, it was not just implied, it was stated.

It appears that riding IRISHMAFIA's coat tails has emboldened you to calling people belligerent. Look Mike, I don't know you (which says alot since we both live in the Houston area), but some of the phylosophies you ascribe to are seriously flawed and will hold you back if moving up is in your future plans.

Wow,

In one thread, Topper, you have questioned your UIC's in your area, put down SP umpires, and worst of all implied that a man you have never stepped on the field with will be held back because he does not share the same views as you. That is belligerent, and arrogant, and more than a little annoying. I too live in the houston area. And I know that I would much rather step on the field with Mike than you. If that holds me back from a org your involved with....okay.

Topper, If you want to use big words to impress people, learn how to spell them. The word is spelled; PHILOSOPHIES. Here endith the lesson.

This is what many ASA-detractors misrepresent. ASA mechanics will put the umpire in the preferred/prescribed position to watch the play develop. Obviously, at that point the umpire can adjust his/her position as necessary as the play dictates.

Your damn right you are not only allowed to move, but encouraged if necessary as long as one does not place themselves in a precarious position for a subsequent play.

FP...C position, less than 2 outs, R1 on 2B, ground ball to F6 who fields it and comes up looking to start her throw to 1B after:

(1) looking R2 back to 2B
(2) "freezing" R2 who is a few steps off of 2B
(3) R2 has run by her enroute to 3B

What's the "mindest", the thought process, for the possible play at 1B, distance or angle?

Look for the 4th dimension? :eek:

JUST KIDDING!!! :D

Obviously you won't be able to improve your distance much. You will lose some angle for the play at 1st moving towards 2nd to improve both on a play there in situations 1 & 2. In 3, if R2 runs on the throw to 1st, he/she is no longer my responsibility. If there is no throw to 1st, I will stay with R2 to 3rd.

The mindset should always be both, but you take what the play gives you.

you may very well need to adjust significantly if it comes to a swipe tag type situation... but you have to stop and read. You cant move yourself out of position, you may need to simply hold and read it. People sometimes move too much.

What does PU's verbal of a catch have to do with a tag up sitch? The fielder may have made contact with a fly ball that has not yet touched the ground which triggers the timing on the tag up; if the ball is then caught before touching the ground, then the verbal from PU is meaningless, except to rule BR Out.

As BU, isn't it my responsibility to see both the play and the runner to know whether the runner left early or not?