Can you abandon your at bat?
 

Had a weird one at the 14U ASA National in Moline, IL last week. 1-1 count, R1 @ 2B. B2 bunts down the 3B line and it trickles foul. We reset with a 1-2 count. Eventually on a 3-2, B2 grounds out. R1 keeps rounding 3B and starts jogging toward her dugout (on the 1B line) obviously thinking the inning is over. She barely gets back safely. The inning ends when the next batter makes an out.

In getting together with my U1, he tells me we allowed 4 outs that inning. During the discussion, we figure out that B2 mistakenly thought she bunted foul with 2 strikes and went to the dugout believing she was the 2nd out. I never saw her go to the dugout because I had just followed a ball down toward the 3B bag.

Defensive team never says a word. However, the next inning while heading to the coach's box, the offensive coach asks what would have happened if he brought it to our attention that B3 replaced B2 in the batter's box prior to B2 completing her turn at bat. He was aware it was going on at the time but was fearful the ruling would be abandonment.

So ... what say you all? What would be the proper ruling if:
a) the OC appeals while B3 is at bat
b) the DC appeals while B3 is at bat
c) the DC appeals after B3 bats but before a pitch is thrown to B4

Can you get an out for abandonment on a batter, or only a runner and/or batter-runner? Is this merely a BOO?

Batters go to dugout to change bats, helmets, etc. and it seems to me it is only abandonment if on a base or advancing.

Looks like a BOO as long as B2 was not out.

Asides:
Why did U1 allow this or did he/she find out after the fact, without watching B2 running or not running to 1st?

Wasn't R1 thinking 3 outs a clue that something was awry? She apparently knew B3 was B3, and B2 was gone.

By the time R1 thinks there are 3 outs, it's too late for PU to fix the BOO - by then it would have to be appealed by the defense.

To answer the OP. A) fix it. B) fix it. C) BOO - you have outs.

U1 assumed he must have had the count wrong and she bunted foul for the 3rd strike and that we had two outs at that point. Afterward, he had given me a "two out time play" signal at which time I returned an emphatic "1 out" signal. U1 was the only one who was aware that B2 went to the dugout. U3 was unaware the batter in the box wasn't the same one who had just batted since he had a runner coming to 3B during the foul bunt attempt. When U1 and I got together and talked about it after the half-inning, I told him I hadn't seen the batter head into the dugout. It wasn't until the OC came out an inning later while heading down to coach 3B that I realized what had occurred. He asked me "What if ....?" and I asked him exactly what had happened. When he told me, I was pretty much shocked.

The offense knew things had gone awry, they were worried they would be hurt more by the remedy/ruling than leaving well-enough alone.

This one was talked about in the umpire tent for quite a while. :D

In this situation no outs for BOO
 

If B3 went to the dug out with a 3-2 count, thinking she was out, and B4 comes up to bat, if the defense appeals before a pitch to B4, then you just replace B4 with B3. Anytime BOO is detected before the improper batter has completed their turn at bat, you just replace with the proper batter.

Just curious....what did the UIC have to say about it?

Um .... what? Are you agreeing or disagreeing, and with which - A, B, or C? (None of the three has B3 doing to the dugout in the middle of her atbat - which is why you've lost me).

I believe we're getting a bit confused, here. Lemme try to clear it up.

B2 went to the dugout after bunting foul on a 1-1 pitch. B3 "started" her at-bat (or began to finish B2's at-bat ... however you want to look at it) with a 1-2 count.

Yes and correct the batter if D appeals.

There was a can of worms ready to explode at this point, you guys were lucky the batter put the ball in play on this pitch. Luckily the OC was aware of their mistake and it may not have been too bad, but... if this was a called pitch (ball four, strike three) the sh!t was heading to the fan in most cases. I can see it now, PU and U3 have B-4 or S-3 but U1 has 2-0 count prior to the pitch. Batter is confused because they think it was 2-0 and doesn't know why she should be out (or go to first). Defense now has a glaring BOO in front of them if they are paying attention. This could not have ended any better for you than it did. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good, I guess. ;)

mbc has covered this.

Looks like you have the batter sequence off by one. Maybe same logic, but harder to follow. :confused: Please recheck the OP. :)

Do you (and all) think a talk was appropriate at this point? Is it acceptable for U1 to initiate it, or is that outside protocol?

Not exactly a tangent, but answering the topic question in a manner that doesn't address the play (which I believe has been answered correctly).

The only manner of "abandonment" that can be applied to a batter (so far as I am aware) is failing to take a position in the batter's box when directed by the umpire. With two strikes, the penalty of a called strike after 10 seconds would result in the out.

But, since some one stepped in, and you didn't ask for the correct batter to step in, it doesn't really apply here.

Biting tongue, biting tongue, biting tongue...............

I figured that was coming! :)

I'll leave the correct ruling to everyone else.

My question to you is, in looking back on this, where do you feel you guys messed up as a crew? As the PU and the guy with the responsibility to manage the crew AND the game, where did you come up short?
As Wade said, "you guys got lucky"....verrry lucky. You guys were one pitch or bounce of the ball away from a major cluster f**k in an ASA National Tournament.
Not looking to slam you here, but you do need to learn from this. To me, long term relative to your umpiring career, it's more important than the correct ruling to the sitch in your OP.
And yes, as others, I'm curious as to the UIC's take on all this.

Also along the lines of "game management"...

I was wondering if you ever gave the count during this sequence. I'm probably going to be signalling/announcing the count after the foul bunt, since we had a slight delay in play and since we now have two strikes. I'm probably going to be giving it again once we reach the third ball/full count.

If you did give the count, it seems like the batter would of had a funny reaction to being told she had two strikes, when you hadn't called a single strike on her! Or, it might have got some response from the defense or your partner for clarification.

Announcing that a batter has two strikes when you haven't called a strike on her tends to get somebody's attention!

That is a good point and it probably would draw the attention of someone. However, :D it would mean the players would need time to react to such an announcement.

I am seeing a lot more umpires (in FP) who are giving the count as they are stepping up behind the catcher as the pitcher is ready. I like to give the count prior to anyone getting set so I can move on to prepare for the pitch instead of making is all one motion.

I completely agree we had luck on our side. (I'll take it!)

Bret: I cannot recall if I gave the count after the foul bunt, or not. But as is my standard practice, I would have. I do remember giving the count on the 3-2 pitch. I never noticed the batter give any reaction. However, if I recall correctly, there might have been an offensive conference during. If so, that would have been a good time for the coach to tell the batter what's going on and not to say anything as the OC was expecting an abandonment out should discovery be made.

KJ: I'm not exactly sure how we should have handled this differently and I'm certainly open to suggestions. To me, if U1 saw something funny he should have shut things down and came to me so we could get it straigtened out. His lack of confidence in the situation (outs, count, etc.), kept our crew from keeping the situation under control.

I think the only person who knew exactly what was going on while it was occurring was the OC. And he was fearful to correct the situation because of what he thought might be negative consequences. Even the DC must not have known the sitch because when the improper B3 grounded out, R1 moved up from 2nd to 3rd. It's the the DC's advantage to appeal at that point since they would get to back the runner up 60 feet.

As far as the UIC goes, when I gave him the situation, he asked me what I thought. I told him my initial reaction was abandonment. He said, "Usually your first reaction is the correct one." I told him I didn't think that was correct in this case. I asked him, "What is she abandoning? She is not a runner or even a batter-runner. She does not 'occupy' home. I think it's BOO." At that point he got called away to other duties and those of us in the umpire tent at the time discussed the play. We were, probably, 70/30 split in favor of BOO.

Got my batter's wrong
 

Sorry! I thought B3 was the batter who had returned to the dug out thinking she was out.

The point I was trying to make was that if a batter "abandons" her at bat and another batter takes her place, then it's not an out for BOO. It's treated like any other BOO scenario where the improper batter has not completed their turn at bat. Replace her with the proper batter and she assumes the count.

OK, here's my .02 for whatever it's worth:

"I cannot recall if I gave the count after the foul bunt"
Brett and Irish already hit on the importance of this. Should be SOP.

...."there might have been an offensive conference during"
??? How can you not know if there was one? You're the PU. Do you not record charged conferences on your lineup card? Or do you rely on memory? Or were these being reported by you to an official scorer in the press box?
If there was a charged OC....refer back to Brett & Irish's comments on counts.

..."if BU saw something funny, he should have shut things down and come to me"
I don't know if you guys covered in your pre-game how to handle a sitch where a BU has information that needs to be conveyed to you during the game. Your reply to my post seems to indicate that it was not discussed in your post game. BTW...did you guys have a proper post game? I mean just the three of you, not just a rehash of the play in the umpires tent with the rest of the umps.

"His lack of confidence in the situation (outs, count, etc.) kept our crew...."
Were "outs, counts. etc." covered in your pre-game? I asked what you felt the crew, as in 3 umpires working as a team, could have done better,and you're tossing B1 under the bus. Maybe his lack of confidence was due to nerves and inexperience at this level of umpiring. Was he new to Nationals? If he was it was either the job of the most experienced "Nationals guy" on the crew, or you as the PU, to sense this and during pre-game spend some extra time with him. I do hope that if you did not have a formal post game, you at least sat down with him to review the sitch and offer some solid confidence building advice.

"....from keeping the situation under control."
That's your job. You're the plate ump. You're the de facto crew chief. This is what running and managing a game is all about.....at any level, but even more so at a National. When **** starts to hit the fan, when the ship starts to drift off course, you're guy that has to take a leadership role to get things back under control, be it with the players, the coaches, or your crew.

At that point he got called away
I would have tracked him down later during the tournament to finish the discussion on the correct ruling....and to review/discuss with him how your crew handled the sitch.

Radio, it was a screwy situation to be sure...again, not looking to slam you. You guys handled it the way you handled it when it happened in the heat of a National tournament. I just think there are some things to learned here.

I hope that your national went well, and that it was an overall good umpiring experience for you.

And as I stated, it is my SOP. I just can't remember for certain if I did, or not.

I made the OP five days after the events occurred. If there had been an OC, I would have and did record the conference on my lineup card. I didn't save those lineup cards, so I'm purely relying on my memory from a tournament where I worked 20 (yes, 20) games.

The day this happened, each umpire was scheduled for 4 - 6 games (5 for me that day). Umpires were coming off of one game and heading right back out for the next one. No, we did not have a much of a pre-game nor did we have a chance to post-game.

U1 is a 20+ year vet and Div. I NCAA umpire. He's a fantastic umpire and I would work with him anywhere. I'm not intending to throw U1 under the bus. However, he's the only one of us three that knew something was awry at the time it occurred. KJ, you've speculated and dreamed up stuff that's not there. Not only were we working a bunch of back-to-backs, but we were working during a day that started with a 4-hour rain delay and 2 of the 12 diamonds were shut down that day due to unplayable conditions. We were in survival mode that day.

...which is exactly what I did. Again, since I had no knowledge something was awry until the end of the half inning, I had nothing out of the ordinary to control. To my knowledge, everything was under control.

I did finish the conversation with my UIC, but I don't want to throw anybody else under the bus. ;)

I do appreciate your input, KJ. And, you're right, there ARE lessons to be learned here. This was my 7th national and this is as hard I've ever been worked at one. We had two days of 4 hour-plus rain delays. One day I didn't get off the diamond until 2:10 a.m. ... and my game wasn't the last one of the day!!!! :eek: The tournament director got 45 minutes of sleep that night. All in all, it was a fantastic experience and, as always, I met a lot of great people and forged some new life-long friendships. (And .. I'm almost caught up on my sleep.)

Perhaps we should get rid of this everybody dress the same requirement and instead require them all to dress differently. If they didn't all dress the same, they might not all look exactly alike to us. :)
________
Club Royal Condo Pattaya

Or maybe require alternating jersey colors in the batting order... Where's NFHS when you need them! :D

KJump, maybe it's just me but your tone and insistent manner of addressing this seems a bit over the top. I'm just lurking on the board reading the threads but my reaction to your responses is "Wow," is he the assignor or evaluator for the OP? And if so wouldn't it be better to address some of this in private? Just seems kind of harsh and demanding of someone who is on here trying to learn from a situation. I've been in the situation where a different batter came up in the middle of an at-bat and I didn't notice. So glad this sit was posted and am also learning from the discussion. Guess I don't want to see folks hit so hard they won't come on here and post.

Do you think that maybe mental and physical fatigue contributed to this being missed or not being handled the same as it might have been if you had a fresh, well-rested crew?

I understand "survival mode"- we've all been there before. I also think that as the number of games pile up, the chances of missing something, not being as alert, not communicating as effectively or flat out blowing a call go up too.

OK, what woud YOU do...
 

... if you're the BU, and you signal 2 outs and your partner signals back 1 out.

Do you call TIME and discuss it, or do you ASSume you must have it wrong?

How about the count... your partner gives the count, you disagree. Again, do you call TIME and discuss it, or do you ASSume you must have it wrong?

Possibly. If I vividly remember the outs, and/or if the number of outs matters (runner on 1st or more).

No, almost never. I assume I'm wrong and he's right. I can imagine doing this if I've got a new batter or maybe 1 pitch into a new batter, and he flashes a 2-2 or 3-2, especially if something odd happened that could have messed one of us up.

I would also say I'm much less apt to do this with some partners than with others. Wrong as that may be.

Radio,
2:10 AM.....OMG, were you taking straight IV's of black coffee?

Seriously though, congrats on your 7th National (all FP?). Have a great offseason and good luck next year...hope you get #8.

KJ

Certainly a factor. Great point Bret.

My game wasn't the last of the day!! :eek: There was one after me that started at 2:20-ish and didn't complete until after 3:30. One of those umpires was back on the diamond at 8:00 a.m.!!

It was brutal ... but we're now kinda like a band of brothers and sisters. We all went through it and came out alive. :)

Yes, all of my Nationals have been JO ball. I've been fortunate to work 10s, 12s, 14s (twice), 18s, plus two Northern Nationals.

If you haven't, read the entire thread.
Radio asked me if I had any suggestions. I offered them, candidly.
I mentioned more than once to him that I was not out to slam him.

Of course I read the whole thread, that's where I gained the impression I expressed. Again, it's just my opinion but it seemed harsh. I appreciate RB for putting this up for discussion.