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ASA, NSA or USSSA rules. Posted from another forum. What say you all?

Need more info. Where was the first step after touching the plate?

So the fly is huge enough to the infield that the runner can run home, score and then walk back to third base before the ball is caught? My question would be how do you keep the ball from burning up on re-entry?

Let's split the question into two scenarios:

1 - The runner runs home, touches it, and immediately heads back towards 3B and NOT the dugout.

2 - The runner runs home, touches it, and immediately walks towards his team's 3B dugout.

I agree. And I told the player that his "what if" scenario was so absurd and un-effing likely that I initially did not weigh in on the matter.

She said "walk back toward third base" not TO third base.

Anyone not using a cane can run one base while a normal IFF is in the air.

Pretty sure the umpire needs to judge intent on this one. From the OP's description, "walk back towards third" could be judged as retreating back to third base, so she better get back there or touch home again.

I personally doubt this was a player's question. Sounds more like something a rat coach would try.

Obviously a good question since there are 6 replies and not even close to an answer.......

It was posted on softballfans.com, so it's probably a player. You should see the crazy stuff they ask on there!

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How can you answer a question without all the data?

But if you want an answer, here it is.

If, IMJ, the runner is returning to 3B, he needs to retouch home or have turned directly TOWARD 3B to remain immune from an appeal at the plate.

If, IMJ, the runner touched the plate and started directly to return to 3B, he has placed himself in jeopardy to be retired.

Now comes the argument that once a runner has scored, the run has scored. Okay, I can buy that. However, if that is your belief, you must hold that a runner which touches home can never return, yet the rules clearly state that they may.

Hmmmm.....where do we go now?

In baseball rules you cannot "unscore" a legally scored run. So if the fly is caught and you need to tag the run was not legally scored so you can retreat. But if the ball is not caught then the run has scored and nothing the runner does can unscore it.

Do (should) the various softball codes have the same?

Are you saying that in 'baseball rules', that if said runner has a brain fart after touching home plate, (and an un caught fly ball), but thinks the ball was caught, and retouches home plate on his way back to tag up 3rd, that run is not 'unscored' ?

If this is true (and I'm not convinced yet), then in baseball, this player's tactic would have worked the way he wanted it to. I can't imagine, were this the actual case, that NO ONE in 100+ years of ball has thought of trying this on a sky-fly-ball, especially a high and short one that they aren't likely to score on anyway.

you should check for a shaved bat.

Not a blue so don't generally post here, but I think the reason you've never seen this in baseball is that no one can hit a pop-up high enough to give the runner time to get home and back to 3B. It's 60yds from 3B to home and back and a world class 60 yd dash time is 7 seconds. Allowing an extra second for the time to stop and turn around before sprintinig back to 3B plus assuming less than world class speed and I'd guess that the best 3B-Home-3B time you could hope for is 8 seconds or a bit more. Some quick calculations show that a pop-up with an 8 second hang time has to be hit about 260ft high or over the top of a 17 storey office building. Not saying it couldn't ever be done, but awfully hard. At a MLB game the other day, I counted the hang times (I know, but the physics of stuff like this is interesting to me) of several really high pop-ups and none even got to 6 seconds.

Then you have never seen Mike Schmidt hit. There is speculation that some of his pop-ups traveled just as far as his HR, just more vertical :D

But the issue here is more of "unringing" the bell as opposed to the runner returning their status to being "in jeopardy".

True. The ball was not caught so there's no reason to retouch. It was thus legally scored and nothing the runner does can change that.

HUH?

If the ball is caught the runner has to retouch or be out on appeal. Why would it be an advantage to run to the next base and back? Or did you not understand what I said in the post (So if the fly is caught and you need to tag the run was not legally scored so you can retreat).

[QUOTE=IRISHMAFIA;683488]Then you have never seen Mike Schmidt hit. There is speculation that some of his pop-ups traveled just as far as his HR, just more vertical :D

LOL, Well, actually I have seen him hit. I grew up in Pittsburgh so any time Mike popped up, no matter how high it went, we were happy. And if you substitute Willie Stargell for Mike, then I've seen some towering pop-ups, but I still doubt that I saw any with a 8+ second hang time.

I'll butt out, since Irish is right that this is about the rules not the physics. I really enjoy reading this forum - all of y'all have taught me a lot - thanks!

[quote=hit4power;683501]Yeah, but Stargell held the distance record for Veterans Stadium in Philly, into the entrance tunnel halfway up the upper deck in right field (just about where I was sitting when the Phillies won the series in game 6 in 1980), so Willie hit them high AND far

[QUOTE=IRISHMAFIA;683506]Wow, I actually saw that shot on TV - he hit it through one of those tunnels in the upper deck and the announcers were speculating about whether it bounced out of the stadium and fell 5 storeys into the parking lot. I also saw him hit one over the right field roof and out of the park at old Forbes field in Pittsburgh. You didn't have to hit it that far, but you sure had to hit it high...

I get your point, but I think you've eliminated a few key factors. First, the runner is leading off, and likely already headed somewhat toward home. Second the runner doesn't have to make it ALL the way back to 3rd to be safe - just has to be close enough so that he can't be thrown out after it's caught.

So consider a "normal" short fly to right - a speedster could easily sprint home and get back close enough to 3rd that he couldn't be thrown out by the right fielder.

Not sure what you don't understand. If the ball is caught, the runner is safely standing on 3rd. If the ball is not caught, he's scored. So his tactic worked (assuming this is the proper interp of the rule... of which, I'm still not convinced.)

(assuming this is the proper interp of the rule... of which, I'm still not convinced.)

I'm not convinced, either, but I can think of two plays on which I'd want to rule differently, though the same principle is involved.

Play 1. Runner on 3B breaks for home on a suicide squeeze. The batter missed the signal and swings, hitting a high pop in the infield. The runner's momentum takes him to the plate, but after he touches he scrambles back toward 3B and is most of the way there when the ball drops untouched and fair. The runner slides back into 3B.

Play 2. Same but the batter hits a soft liner that F9 charges and has a chance to catch. The runner, after touching home, retreats toward 3B for a few steps and then F9 traps the ball. The runner, not sure whether the ball was caught, continues back to 3B and then learns the ball was trapped.

I'm confident that the run should score in Play 2, and since Play 1 is the same in principle, the run should score there, too. However, I admit that if Play 1 happened to me, I'd probably keep the runner at 3B (and find out later that I had erred).

I did think about the leading off part, but for the sake of argument lets give the runner a walking lead of 10-12 feet. When he reaches home at full speed I figure it will take him at least 10-12 feet to come to a stop, reverse, and start sprinting back to third. And if he only needs to be with 10-12 feet of third base when the ball is caught and thrown, then he still ran 60yds round trip and it still took him 8+ seconds. You make a good point about a pop-up on the right side - I suppose it could take a full second after the catch to fire the ball over to 3B, so maybe a 7 second hang time would be enough for a really fast runner to pull this off. That's still a ball hit around 220ft. high.

Again, you're forgetting the time it takes to throw the ball to 3rd... insignificant if this popup is to SS ... but significant if it's deep 1B or shallow RF near the line. Plus - Grey's suicide squeeze is a PERFECT example of how this might come into play.