Safety base
 

Runner on first.....batter hits line drive to second baseman who catches it and throws to first baseman who has her foot on the orange safety base.....runner gets back to the white base after the throw....but first baseman never touches the white bag at all.....is the runner safe? Can the first baseman use the orange bag for the force out?

Also.....

Ground ball hit to first.....first baseman bobbles ball....picks up ball with bare hand and then touches bag with her glove....this seemed weird to me....I know that you can't tag a runner with just the glove....is this legal? Out?

Thanks for any input in advance.

The runner is safe.

Check ASA rule 8.

Stu,
Illiniwek had two questions.

Yes, the runner is safe when the colloured part of the safety-base is used by F1. The only exception is when there's a throw from foul-territory on the 1st base side. Then (only then), F1 has a choise using white or clooured base.

To answer the 2nd question, what difference is there in having a foot on the base and the ball in your hand (or glove) and having the ball in a hand and touching the base with the other hand. Touching the base, in (controlled) possesion of the ball that is what's required...

this is a play on a runner already on first, not the first play on the batter-runner ... its all one base at that point, runner is out

Play 1) NFHS: SAFE Both bags considered one base except for an intitial play at first) - I thought it was the same in ASA, but seems others don't, I'll have to look it up.

Play 2) It may look wierd, but it is an out (all codes)

:confused:Both of the previous individuals have said the exact same thing but with different calls. I am totally confused now.

Both bags considered one base---

3afan-OUT
HugoTaFurst-SAFE
:confused:

I thought the only time the colored part could be used was on the 1st play on the BR.

It is NOT a force out, it is a live ball appeal. The defense made the proper appeal holding the ball while touching the base. The runner is out in all rules sets of which I am aware.

Can you tag the base with your foot while the ball is in the hand? What's the difference?

Out and out.

Now, regarding sitch 2, who's going to regurgitate the extremely long hair example from 3-4 years ago?

You mean the ponytail example?

Yes ... the exaggerated one.

or a shoe lace :D

That one too. :)

These sound like they created quite a discussion on here.

Even though F3 never touched the white (ie in fair territory) part of the double base and the throw did not come from foul territory? Please note: I'm not trying to argue, just to learn.

Thanks.

We're a lively bunch. :D

ASA Rule 8, Section 2M

Serg

If you're refering to 8-2-M-5, I disagree. That rule is pretty clear: "On an errant throw pulling the defense off the white portion..."

That didn't happen according to the OP:

With all due respect to everyone, I still have safe.

Yep. Once the batter-runner passes the bags, it becomes one big two-tone base, either color equally valid for all purposes.

Um, Stu ... think it through. Are you really implying that a runner trying to get to first base FROM THE DIRECTION OF SECOND has to go to the orange bag to be safe? Logically, does that make any sense to you?

The rule you keep quoting SOLELY applies to plays being made on the batter-runner heading from the plate to first. In every other situation, the bag is just one big bag for both the offense and the defense.

The latest manual I have online is 2008, and in it this rule is number 8.3.M.7

Any time the runner can use both halves, so can the defense.

No, not at all. But I'm not talking about the baserunner. I'm saying that the defensive player is off the (white) bag.

BTW... Here's the most recent [in]famous ponytail/shoelace post.

http://forum.officiating.com/softbal...tml#post445020

Is that a POE? A rule that I'm overlooking? Again, I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just trying to always get better.

The same rule that is telling you that the defensive player must use the white tells you that the offense must use the orange... while that's obviously not true in the OP. You can't insist that half of the rule applies when obviously the other half doesn't.

The safety bag is for SAFETY - for a BR coming from home and the first baseman. It's not meant as a gotcha on other plays.

OK...but please cite a rule that suppoorts that.

I have been taught that the orange base is used by the batter/runner when trying the beat out a ground ball OR by the defense when the throw is coming from foul ground. I can point to specific places in the rulebook that support those two things. Otherwise, the orange/colored/foul portion of the double base is the same as dirt to me.

Maybe I'm a bonehead, but I still have safe.

You need to learn how to read the book. I'm not saying you should read it... you obviously have. you need to learn HOW to read it.

I'm not sure why you expect us to cite a rule that says "Don't apply rules that refer to the batter runner (8-2) to a normal runner". We're not going to be able to cite such a thing. But we keep telling you this rule applies to the batter-runner, and not the runner. I don't know what you want us to do to make you believe us.

8-2 says, "THE BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT"... then lists all the ways a batter-runner can be out. You're going to be in a heap of trouble if you try to apply rules from one section to unapplicable situations. We've told you repeatedly that this rule doesn't apply to a runner, and now you're asking for a rule citation to tell you not to apply rules from one section to a completely different situation? Next you'll want to apply 8-2-E to say a runner sliding into 2nd is out because they ran outside the running lane.

If you find anything regarding the safety base in 8-7 ("The RUNNER IS OUT"), please let us know. But you won't. The ONLY place in the rules where the orange and white sections are treated differently is in 8-2. Good luck finding something to support, "Otherwise, the orange/colored/foul portion of the double base is the same as dirt to me."

You say you just want to learn and get better, but you refuse to listen to anyone. I don't get it.

Like I said, I'm a bonehead.

I see what you're saying. Thanks for the insight.

My take has always been that the "orange" bag is only "orange" when the batter is trying to beat out the throw. Any other time it is just one big base.



In fact, just last week in a coed game........I was playing first and a girl was on first, guy batting hits a liner right back at the pitcher who caught it and I run to 1B and catch the ball with my foot making contact with the "orange" bag just before the runner gets back to the white........I did not intentionally aim for that bag---just the base. This is a similar play as to what the OG posted -- yes?

I think you're over-scolding here, Mike. The treatment of the orange base as just another part of foul territory WAS the way the rule was called up until a few years ago.

Also, ASA does not do a particularly good job of stating that the safety (sic) base is just one big base for both the offense and the defense once the BR becomes a runner.

Even in the past when the orange bag was treated as dirt for "runner is ..." calls, the safety (sic) base was not directly mentioned beyond the BR rules.

The issue in the situation discussed is not whether the runner has to touch the orange bag, but whether the defense CAN use it for a live ball appeal. That is how the rule is interpreted (one big base), but please, in the ASA rule book, find a rule cite for that.

Tom - if I was over-scolding, I apologize. :) I just felt like we were all saying the same thing, while the poster kept saying he insisted on believing something else but wanted to learn. My bad if I was over the top. (Not the first time, won't be the last).

To "prove" the point in ASA, you have to look at the section regarding the field (where the rule simply called the base a double base). It's just a base - same as all the rest except for it's size ... in every respect EXCEPT where specifically noted (meaning rule 8-2).

IOW - don't make the assumption that there's a reason to treat the base halves differently except in the singular case where we are told to do so.

Interestingly I do remember getting in a rather heated discussion at a clinic, back when the orange base WAS dirt, where I and about 6 others insisted the clinician had no rules backing for his assertion that the orange base was dirt. The only resolution we ever got to that was along the lines of "Just do what you're told." :)

I do not like this.......I like sound reasons......it's like when your parents used to say "because I said so."

This was a lot simpler when there was just one base color to deal with. :D

true statement......although I never played then.......that I remember anyway.

Actually, it does. 2.3.H clearly states the first base is 15" X 30". Let me say that again. First base is 15" X 30". Unless a rule cites an exception as to which portion of the bag is to be used when, then and only then does it make a difference. I do NOT believe you will find any such exception outside of rule 8.2.M which is exclusive to the batter-runner. Stu should also check the last sentence of 8.2.M.6.

See above. Why would you need a separate rule telling you about using a base when it is defined as a multicolored base of 15"X30"? That's like including a rule that states a pitch which hits the bat after hitting the batter's helmet is not a batter ball.

Rule book is big enough without constantly proving the obvious. It's like my wife calling me from the store last week to tell me what she wasn't buying!!!

Bingo.

Mine does that a lot. I always thank her.

WOW...that was a great response....except for the part where I was wrong! Dangit....I was hoping for confirmation that I was right....OOPS...at least now I have greater insight as to why I will get this call right in the future.....so the DEFENSE CAN utilize the orange bag to complete an out as described........the runner in my caseplay is OUT!!

Stu, hope this is enough of a citation for you as obviously mb's and Irish's detailed, rule supported, logical, and common sense based replies were not satisfactory enough for you.....

2010 ASA UMPIRE CLINIC GUIDE

Rule 2 FIELD
Double Base:Rule 2 Section 3H and Rule 8, Section 2M
The Double Base is mandatory for all divisions of play.

A) The double base will be 15 x 30 inches with half the base in fair territory and half in foul territory.

B) When using the double base, the following should be remembered:

1) When a play is being made on the batter-runner by any fielder the fielder must use the white portion (fair territory) and the batter-runner must use the contrasting color portion (foul territory) with the following exceptions:

2) On an errant throw pulling the defense into foul territory the defense can use the portion of the base in foul territory and the batter-runner can use the white portion of the base.

3) On any force out from the foul side of first base the batter-runner can use the white portion (fair territory) and the fielder can use the contrasting color portion (foul territory) of the base.

4) After the batter-runner has reached first base, BOTH the batter-runner AND the fielder can use either color of the base for ANY defensive or offensive play.

The Clinic Guide closes the section on the Double Base with this:
"Bottom line: Before the batter-runner reaches 1B and a play is being made the base is 15 in.X30 in. Once the batter-runner has reached 1B the base becomes 30 in. X 30 in."

30x30---Holy Toledo Batman That is one large base...:confused:or now we allow the neighborhood at 1B so this whole long argument is moot. It doesn't matter where you touch the base--just get close. So do you get 8in extra in front or in back or do you get the extra 15 in anywhere.:p:D

What a way to lose all credibility in a single sentence. The base is NEVER 30" X 30". :eek:

This must have been put in here by the same person that uttered the phrase "double re-entry" when that rule was change! :rolleyes:

This entire topic says the clinic guide quote
"4) After the batter-runner has reached first base, BOTH the batter-runner AND the fielder can use either color of the base for ANY defensive or offensive play."

Maybe it should be added as a note to the OP for new readers to save time. :)

Irish,
I know from reading your posts that you have more contact with the folks that write/publish our ASA training materials than probably anyone else on this board. Do they ever listen to feedback on stuff like this when you bring it to their attention?

Wow. In post #37 of this thread, KJ writes...

Damn. Isn't that a bit harsh? Especially considering the fact that I realized I had the rule wrong by post #27?

Anyway, mission accomplished. You can be sure that I'll get this sitch right should it come up this weekend!

I'll leave your domestic conversations to between you and your wife, but this is exactly what I meant. Rule 2 defines the dimensions and placements of the components of the playing field, not the rules use of the field. To leave the clear statement that this is one big base of all purposes except BR to be inferred from the dimensions is, as I said, not clearly stating it. Apparently, it is not quite as obvious as you claim if it had to be stated clearly in the umpire clinic guide, whose intended audience is the most experienced umpires in ASA whose job is to teach other umpires. I guess they needed it to be clearly stated, not left to be inferred from the dimensions. Is it asking too much to add the statement from the clinic guide so all of us non-clinicians can read it, too? Especially since this was a change in interpretation (not change in dimension or placement)?

Okay, the base is 15" X 30". Touch the base before being put out, you are safe. Tagging a base before the runner gets there, the runner is out.

Doesn't get simpler than that. If you are an umpire, it is YOUR responsibility to read and understand the rules. I will NOT support anything which adds to the stupification of America. The only things which needs clarification is the exception to the norm and that is done in 8.2.M

It is bad enough there has to be a special piece of equipment because the coaches and players are not smart enough to respectively coach and play the position properly.

Being as how the clinic guide is on the same CD with the casebook, I would think ASA wanted to make the intended audience any ASA umpire who wanted to invest $15.00 for the CD to expand their understanding of the rules, and not just clinicians.
Umpiring in an area where our ASA organization is not proactive in conducting clinics, I've found the CD to be a great help and well worth the money.

What makes it less simple is most of this was exactly the same when the orange base was considered part of foul ground before the rule change. If it was so blindingly simple and well covered in the rule book, why does the clinician guide get more explicit? I'm not confused by this, but the OP was, and I can understand why.

Becasue the clinic guide is an aid for those giving a clinic, not to be taken by those receiving it. And on top of that, as quoted, was incorrect.

Remember the old D3K? It was so specific, it excluded a common scenario. Even when brought to the attention of those responsible to correct, it took two attempts to clean it up which was accomplished by reducing the specifics.

K.I.S.S.