Occupying the same base
 

Okay, let me toss this one out there. This one may be simple, but there's a twist I'm not 100% certain of.

ASA Rules, but interested if there are any rulesets with variations on this sitch.

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, no outs. B3 hits a long fly ball to the right field. R1 takes off on the hit. R2 initially stays, but leaves the base two steps before the ball is caught. R1 makes it just shy of 3B, realizes the ball is caught and heads back. R2 is already standing on 2B when R1 returns. Both are standing on the base. Defense tags R2, then R1.

What do you do?

Ball was caught, so R1 was not force to vacate second base. R2 is out regardless of who is tagged first. Had the ball been not caught in the outfield, then R1 would be out since she has been forced off second base.

I'm not sure if the "twist" you are referring to is R2 leaving too soon or not. I would not interpret the defensive team's actions as an appeal of R2 leaving too soon.

It is R1's base......since the ball was caught and they went back because they knew they had to tag and then knew they did not have time. R2 was out--base coaches were bad? lol

What call GOT made?

Wasn't my game. Just want to see what y'all say. This was asked by a player on another forum.

The call that WAS made was clearly the wrong call, though. That much was certain. :)

There's really no twist here at all. Leaving a base early is a nothing unless someone appeals it. At this point in the play, all you have is 2 runners on a base - which is handled rather easily.

Well, here's the twist that comes to mind, and I might be over-thinking it...

An umpire does not want to tip their hand on an appeal play, but two runners occupying the same base is not an appeal play. We also can't honor "accidental appeals," which means we have to know WHY the defense is tagging the runner.

So what do we say when they make the tag? Sure, we can call the out, but if the OC asks you why, which reason do you give him/her?

Secondly, does R2 legally occupy 2B?

I said it before, but the fact that the player left early is completely irrelevant unless and until someone makes a specific appeal regarding that player leaving early. So ignore it.

If this happens, R2 is out when he's tagged. By rule. When OC asks me why, I say - because there were two people on the same base, R1 was there legally, so R2 is out when tagged. I'm not referring to the player leaving early at all - it never became relevant, and for all I care it didn't happen.

This isn't difficult or controversial at all.

Let's take this further - hoping this makes it clearer, not muddier. :)

R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st. Deep fly to right is caught. R1 did not return all the way to 2nd before advancing to 3rd. R2 tagged up at 1st legally and went to 2nd - the ball is thrown hom and R2 advances to third. Both runners are now on third.

Fielder tags R1, then R2... what do you have?

I think it's safe to say that absent something verbal, they are making these tags because there are two people on base. R1 is there legally... so R2 is out. They can STILL appeal R1 leaving early.

Add in something different... coach yelling "Bobby - #14 left early, throw it to third", whereupon they tage R1 then R2... R1 is out for leaving early. R2 is now NOT out at third, because at the moment he's tagged, he's legally on 3rd base.

That help? Or did I make it worse?

I agree completely with the man that needs to update his location in his profile. :D

Is it implicit in your answer that R1 could be called out for leaving the base early because you are saying a runner can't tag up to an occupied base? If so, can you point me at that rule. If not, can someone please explain why there could be an appeal play here.
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The Cliff Condos Cosy Beach

Can you clarify either what you're asking or what I said that made you think I was saying anything along the lines of what you posted here? You've lost me.

(Edit to add: I've insisted from the OP that until someone appeals, the fact that someone (it was R2, not R1) left early is COMPLETELY and TOTALLY irrelevant.)

So we both misread the OP, which I think is our disconnect. You have R2 leaving early and I had R1 leaving early. In the OP both R1 and R2 leave early.

Since I didn't realize R2 had left early, I didn't understand what possible appeal anyone was discussing which led me to question if you believed R1 could be called out on appeal even after retouching because R1 was on the base he had returned to.
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Live sex

And it's only Monday !! :eek: :p

Ah, got it, YU.

Why isn't this handled...
 

just like a live ball appeal. Afterall, when with a runner on 1st there is a line drive to the second baseman he catches the line drive and immediately throws to first to double off the runner...this would be a live ball appeal correct?

Maybe, but let's go just a little further. R1 advanced to 3B before returning to 2B. R2 is standing on 2B before R1 returns. Does R2 now legally occupy 2B? If they tag R2, are they appealing that he left early, or are they tagging him because they think he's not legally occupying 2B?

Not unless they say that's what they are doing. And no, R2 does not legally occupy 2B the instant R1 returned and touched the bag... the bag now "belongs" to R1. R2 is out when tagged - not for leaving early - for being the trail runner while 2 people occupy the same base.

I'm really not understand what's not clear nor why you're trying unsuccessfully to make this sound difficult when it's clearly not.

Two things:

1 - I'm trying to stir up a little debate here. Yeah, I'm reaching here, and I know it. Some of my posts lately have been along these veins (see my post about 5 man infield). But this board is getting too damn quiet. No one's talking. It may be because some are afraid to, or maybe our numbers are dwindling. Who knows? But it's too damn quiet! :)

2 - I'm asking about procedure. What do you, as the umpire, verbally say or signal in the situation?

Rabble rouser!! :D

Here's how I'd handle it. Point at R2 and rule her out for the tag. I'd simply say "Out" while pointing at her. If there's no verbal appeal, I'm going to assume they are tagging the runners because they are both on the same bag.

Well, I've gotta be honest, guys... I've been getting worried about this board and its participation rates. I know there are a LOT of lurkers, and I wonder if some have been scared off.

I'm trying to bring some of these people out of the woodwork so that they can introduce themselves and get involved in discussions with (in my not-so-humble opinion) some of the top minds in softball officiating. Some of these questions may be basic rule interpretations/applications, but we must always remember our roots and that somewhere out there is an umpire treading the waters we once tread.

Let's give 'em the support they need.

Is there any practical implication to the distinction? By that I mean, appeal, R2 is out. No appeal R2 is out. And to make it worse, appeal but R2 didn't leave early. R2 is still out. (A runner tagged while off of a base is out even if the purpose of the tag was to execute an appeal). And I suspect you're going to get some grief on the last because it'll look like you're calling them out on the appeal but I don't think there's a mechanic to get out of that.
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Babes Webcams

Ding ding ding!

This is exactly what I was getting at. :D

"She's out." While signaling out. Walk to my position. There's no controversy or anything to worry about here. This is VERY simple. Two people on the same base - the one that has no right to it is out. Move on. The appeal never came into play at all.

Surely you can stir stuff up regarding something that actually has something to stir. This is simple.

Wow.

Why?

Why would there be any grief ... why would ANYONE assume there's an out on the appeal. They see two people on the same base, a tag, and an out called. And most of them have seen this before. No reason to assume anything. Further - say they DO make this assumption... why in the world would they then cause anyone any grief. What do you possibly envision the coach (or anyone) saying in this situation that could give ANY umpire any grief here.

This horse is dead, packaged, and eaten by now. I'm done.

Exactly.

I would point at the runner that is out so that there is no confusion as to which runner I am ruling out. If you don't point, R1 may very well think you called her out and step off the bag. Then you're really in the jackpot.

I am not ruling on any appeal until somebody informs me there is an appeal to be made. Otherwise, I am simply ruling on the fact that there are two runners standing on the same bag and that both of them have been tagged.

After looking at this further, I don't think it matters whether or not there is an appeal in the first place. R2 is going to be out for either reason. R1 is still entitled to 2nd base so she has tagged up.

Heck, I haven't been participating lately for a variety of reasons. (Well, one in particular, but we won't go there.)

Oh...and it has nothing to do with this board or its participants!

My point was that if you change up the OP, you can have a situation that's a little rough. R2 does not leave early. The ball is thrown in and for whatever reason F4 says, R2 left early loud enough for both benches to here and then tags F2 at which point you call R2 out. 1B coach (not a species known for being real bright) goes ballistic, she did not leave early. Though it seems like the conversation will be short. "Not out on the appeal, just tagged out with two runners on the base." My thought in my comment was is there something you could do to avoid even the conversation.
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bald pussy Webcams

IMO, if they were making the obvious appeal on R2 leaving 1st early, they would throw to (and tag) 1st. That is the obvious appeal, and you would rule on that. While tagging R1 standing on 2nd MIGHT be an appeal, it isn't obvious, since there is a more 'obvious' reason to tag R2 while R1 is standing on the same base. So, even if intended as a live ball appeal, it still must be either 1) obvious and apparent that they are making an appeal, or else 2) they must verbalize what it is they are appealing.

It doesn't matter if tagging R1 is meant as an appeal, because R1 has returned and is standing on the bag left early. It also doesn't matter that they tag R1 because two runners occupy the same base, when R1 is the lead runner, and therefore entitled to occupy the base.

If you have an out on the tag, then simply say so as you make the out call.

Appeal
 

Here is what I had at a 15U ASA game:
R!, R2: B3 hit a long on to F8 and R1 and R2 is off on the pitch.

R2 is "packing the mail" and the 3rd base coach is screaming "Go back! Go back!"

F8 misplays the ball and R1 and R2 end up on 2nd base as F9 throws the ball to F3.

F3 throws the ball to F5 as the 3rd base coach is screaming "Run!".

F5 tags both R1 and R2 on 2nd base. R1 and R2 both walk off the base. They both get tagged again while off the base. I call both of them out and the OC goes bananas.

The OC calls time and asks for an explanation. I said "both players were off the base and were tagged out." the 3rd base coach and the OH get into an argument in the middle of the field. I tell both coaches to "Knock it off and go back to where you belong!"

My partner asked me why I did not throw someone out? I said " I needed the comic relief of almost having a fight start and having a ringside seat!"

The game continued and it ended with the team winning.:D

charlie... first, you have your runners backward. Second, you should have called R1 (from second) IMMEDIATELY and clearly out when tagged on 2nd base as she was forced to vacate (this may have caused R2 (from 1st) to stay on 2nd. Sounds like, from your description, you called both out after they stepped off. (This is what I would have been yelling at you if I was the coach ... and yes, I'd have gotten ejected - if you didn't call the out when the out was made, you put the other runner (who was never in jeopardy) in jeopardy)

PS - who is OH ... and why isn't partner out there getting one of the coaches away from you?

Please go back and read the OP!:eek:

NOBODY was tagged on ANY BASE correctly (I forgot to put that in)! No play was being made on the correct runner! The 3rd base coach was yelling at the runners!

They were tagged off base!:cool:

Are you sure this was ASA? ASA does not have 15U.:rolleyes:

Sure they do! They just usually play in 16U or 18U. :D

The coach told me they were U15 - other team was a U16. This happened last year (09) and it was a bad game because of the coaches.

Actually, that is the correct age-wise designation for what ASA calls 14U. ;)

What's an "OH"?

Offensive Harda$$?

I don't need to reread the OP ... I was responding to YOUR situation, not the OP... and if Nobody was tagged on any base, then that changes things... I apologize for assuming meant that F5 tagged both R1 and R2 on 2nd base... if you meant something different, well, how was I to guess?

And as an aside, I surely don't care about the 3rd base coach.

"F5 tags both R1 and R2 on 2nd base." :confused:

I have an out here as well, unless you wrote that incorrectly. 2 runners on the same base and both are tagged, then 1 of them has to be out. Though I do wonder what F5 was doing way over at 2B.


One of them was already out. And as already stated, by not calling that out, you have placed the other in jeopardy, who likely would not have left the base.

Gotta say, if I were the runner, I would keep my butt on that base until called out, not wander off... I say if they're off the bag, they're off the bag.

That's pretty much not the right move, wouldn't you think? You're guaranteeing an out if everyone stays there. If you're the one there improperly and know it, you should leave.

And considering it's USUALLY the younger ones where this happens, I'd feel pretty safe assuming that they (and coach) didn't know which was proper. I don't blame them for trying to go SOMEwhere.

But if we call an out when it happens, as we should, we likely avoid the extra out. Thus... if we DON'T, we've put someone at jeopardy.

Sorry, I meant after I had been tug the first time. To clarify: there are 2 of us on the bag, and the fielder has tug both of us. I'm not going to assume that I'm out and wander off. I'm going to wait for the call.

And yes, I'm aware that young (8U) girls aren't going to think this way. However, I still say that if they are off the bag (for whatever reason) and they are tug, they are out. It is certainly a teachable moment after they get called out for wandering off the bag.

Thank you for bringing a well thought out and reasoned comment to the discussion.



green Planet

You're too damn skinny for me.

I don't think either assumed they were out and wandered off base. It's more likely they assumed neither was out but that they had to do something and left base trying to do just that. Had one of them been called out, this likely would not have happened.

BTW, the past tense of 'tag' is 'tagged' and not 'tug'.