DP / Flex Help!
 

Hi Blues, a friendly coach here and I've been told this is the best source for my rule questions regarding NFHS.

I "think" that I have a fair understanding of the DP / Flex rule. However, like most coaches, there are some things I need some guidance with.

From my understanding, the DP can enter on Defense for any person at any time. If the DP enters on defense for the Flex, then the Flex has left the game. I have 2 questions regarding this scenario.

1. Can the Flex (or substitue) re enter as the Flex and i'm back to 10 players again? I can go from 9 to 10 players a number times during the game by using subs in the Flex position - is this correct?

2. A bit more complicated question (for me anyway). Of the players, I have Player1 as my DP batting in the 1 hole, Player2 as my Flex, Player3 batting in the 4 hole playing F8. Since the DP can enter the game for anyone at anytime, can I enter the DP during the top of the 1st inning and place Player3 on the bench. Now I would have my DP and Flex on defense. Is the DP designation still assigned to Player1 or did it follow Player3 to the bench.

Thanks!

If you are going to use the DP/Flex, the DP must be one of the 9 batters, and the flex is listed 10th.

As long as you start the game with the DP/Flex, you can switch back and forth between 10 and 9 players any number of times as long as you have available substitutes.

The DP Designator
 

The DP designator stays with the player batting in the DP spot. If you have a sub who comes in to bat for the DP, don't you still have a DP? If the DP plays defense for any of the 9 players, isn't the DP still batting? The answer to both questions is Yes.

hi coach, the easiest way to understand the DP/FLEX, SUB, CR rules all in one visual is to see it from the lineup card point of view. use this link to see an excellent presentation that might help clarify how you can move your players around.

this presentation is of managing the lineup card from an umpires point of view, but it will most certainly help you as a coach as well.

Lineup Card Management

Does DP follow player or position?
 

So in scenario 2, when my DP comes in on Defense and puts the person playing F8 on the bench, the DP is the person on Defense, not the person on the bench.?? Yesterday, an official told us that the DP followed the person to the bench. This didn't make sense to us because the Flex would then be able to bat for anyone who was put on the bench.

thanks

The answer to your original #1 is "yes." Just be aware that the player who started as FLEX has left the game, and therefore has one re-entry remaining, so if you do this again, that player will be done for the game. You can put in a sub for the FLEX position, however, and go back to 10.

I don't understand this "followed to the bench" at all.

Simply put, when DP plays on defense for any player other than FLEX, NO ONE has left the game. The batting order is unchanged. In your example, F8 sits out on defense that inning, but remains in the game and bats in her regular slot in the batting order. DP remains in the batting order in her regular slot, too.

With the DP, you have a 10th defensive player you can use in defensive position changes just like any other defensive player with no effect on the batting order and with no one leaving the game, with the exception of if DP plays defense for FLEX, FLEX has left the game.

Yes. It counts as the Flex's one re-entry for the game.
Yes, keeping in mind each time you go back to 10 from 9, the person coming in needs to be eligible to come back in the game (as in, a sub who has never been in the game or who has not used her re-entry).

Yes. Your DP is now on defense but Players 1 and 3 will both still be hitting. Player 3 is still considered to be in the game. Player 1 was named the DP at the start of the game so she will remain the DP. The DP is locked into the #1 spot in the batting order in your scenario. Player 3 doesn't really get a designation. She is still in the game, just not playing defense.

From a coaching perspective think of the player who goes to the bench when the DP plays defense for them as having the defensive position of bench. As in:

Player, "Where am I playing this inning coach? "
Coach, "The bench."

This player has not left the game because she is still batting.

The exception to this is the Flex - who is out of the game if the DP replaces her on defense because she is neither hitting or playing defense.

The spot in the lineup where the DP starts the game is always the DP's spot. It doesn't follow anyone anywhere.

Posted a couple of weeks ago, but worth repeating and expanding, at least I think so.

Not just for this topic, but many people get confused because of ambiguous terminology in conversation, cases, even clinics.
A frequent example is the difference between player, lineup and batting order.

A player is a person (Erin, Cassidy, Elayna) with a uniform number (#18, #14, #7).

A position or designation is a function or sequence for game management, defined on a lineup, with last names of course.

All players participating are shown on the lineup. All players playing offense, i.e. batting, are shown in the batting order portion of the lineup.

A player (Erin #18) is only allowed one re-entry,
But multiple players (Cassidy #14, Elayna #7) can hold a position/designation (defense or offense) during a game.

For most rules:
the lineup includes the Flex but the batting order is only the players currently on offense.

For DH, EP, AP rules:
where EP, AP are used, those positions are also in the batting order. Where DH/DP is used, the DH position is also in the batting order, and the DP is there as a note and defensive position.


Oh, and courtesy runners are just that, a courtesy, not a substitution, not counted as in the game and can not be replaced by another CR. If the CR is replaced on the bases by a substitute, that substitute also replaces the pitcher or catcher the CR was running for. This comment ignores injury/shorthanded situations.

Flex/DP final Question
 

Thank you all that answered my previous post regarding the Flex/DP. I've looked through all the previous posts and still have one additional question. My brother was certainly correct that you guys have the info and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to respond. I plan on using this scenario in the State Playoffs this year and need some input as to its validity.

Line Up Card
Num Name Pos
1 Angie 1
2 Barbie 2
3 Casey 8
4 Darla DP
5..9 ...
10 Julie (Flex) 3

At the start of the first inning, Darla (DP) goes in on defense and plays for Casey. Throughout the entire game, Casey actually stays on the bench for Defense but bats on Offense. I do this so that I have a fast running Flex tied to my DP. Had Darla not been a DP since she's not a pitcher or catcher, the only way I can put a fast runner in the game for her when she gets on base is to substitute. I don't have any other speed other than my Flex who I need on Defense only.

So when we come up on offense, Angie hits a single and gets on base. I immediately bring my Flex in to run for her. Julie is still my Flex and has not left game. I do this throughout the game with Angie and Julie. Angie hits 3 times and gets on base, Julie runs 3 times for her.

Do you guys see anything wrong with playing in this manner? On a previous post someone made a great example of considering the "bench" as a defensive position when playing with a Flex.

Thanks again!

Also in addition to the answer on the other thread, if you pull angie out of the game twice, she has no more re-entry.

Yes. The FLEX used in this manner is an illegal player. FLEX cannot play offense for anyone except the DP. Rule 2-57-3.

Sometimes people use terms back and forth and think it is perfectly clear to everyone what is happening or what the correct interpretaton is. I wonder if this is not the case with the DP and the Flex and the term out of the game (line up management tutorial or left the game). This deals with one going in for the other.

Regardless of the term, one means that the DP or the flex is not leaving the game under the substitution rubrics. It is a whole different rubric.

My understanding is the starting DP and Flex can swap back and forth all game long and it has no bearing on re-entry.
:confused:

Yes, as long as there have been other players subbed in for the DP and FLEX before the second return.

NO, any individual player can only re-enter once. Even though it is not a substitution when first swapped, the FLEX playing offense for the DP means that DP player has left and can only re-enter once. Not the position, the player. See my ambiguous terminilogy post yesterday, this topic.

You have a red-letter edition of the rule book? Cool! Can I get one? :D

The simple rule of thumb to remember in ALL DP/FLEX situations is that to be considered in the game, the person playing the position must be performing the duties of that position. Period.

In other words, if the starting FLEX is not playing defense, then they are considered to have left the game.

If the starting DP is not playing offense, then they are considered to have left the game.

Period. End of story.

Now, these people who have left the game may re-enter once, or be substituted for with a legal substitute. No reason to make it any harder than that!

FLEX and DP are positions, not players. The substitute and re-entry rules do not apply to positions.

The players playing the positions FLEX and DP are, however, governed by the substitution and re-entry rules.

If the player playing the FLEX position (DP position) is not playing defense (offense), that player AND that position have left the game. (Line up back to 9).

If the player playing the FLEX position (DP position) who was so removed from the game re-enters the game, that player has used up her re-entry rights and if taken out of the game again may not re-enter.

However, this does not terminate the FLEX position (DP position). Any eligible substitute can be placed in either position.

Legal - Darla or whoever is occupying her spot if Darla is substituted for is still the DP. The DP is whoever is in that fourth spot in the lineup.

Not if the ump is paying attention.

The DP is Darla (the fourth spot in the batting order)

If you are thinking that the Flex can be a courtesy runner see:

Since a player in the game can't be used as a CR the Flex can not be used as a CR.

The rules clearly state that when the DP plays defense for the Flex or the Flex plays offense for the DP this is a substitution.

Think of it this way. The DP has left the game when she is not playing offense. The Flex has left the game when she is not playing defense.

If you have left the game to play again you must re-enter the game. You can only legally re-enter one time. So while the Flex and DP can switch any number of times the players in those positions can only leave and re-enter once per game.

Abby is the starting DP
Betty is the starting Flex

Abby reaches base - Betty runs for her
Result Abby has left the game

Abby re-enters to hit when her spot comes up again and reaches base again
Betty runs for her
Abby has now left the game a second time and can not return

The DP's spot in the line-up comes up again, Coach uses sub Carol to bat for Abby. Carol reaches base.
Betty runs for the DP, who is now Carol.
Carol has left the game

When the DPs spot comes up again the coach can re-enter Carol or use another player as a sub and Betty can run for the DP again if the DP reaches base.

Betty has not left the game. The DP and Flex have been switched as many time as the coach wants. The substitution rules have been applied correctly.

You can not pick one sentence out of the rule book and ONLY apply that.
This phrase:

appears in the NFHS rule book in the POE section under dp/flex as a basic rule to remember for coaches. It fails to mention that the DP and Flex are not players they are positions. While the two may replace each other any number of times the actual person/player is limited to one re-entry.

where the .... were you guys when this was presented?

I have heard it presented at least 3 or 4 times and never heard the distinguishing term player vs position. I learned that if one went in for the other then when they came back it was his her one reentry.

thanks to all.

I've read it in the rule book.

DP / FLEX defined as positions: ASA 4-1-C-1-b (fast pitch); 4-1-C-2-b, d (modified pitch).

Discussed WRT the player playing the position for substitute rule purposes: ASA 4-3-C, D, F, & I.

Well, Ronald, how is the DP supposed to move to the Flex?

This is why the term DEFO was more appropriate, but being good Americans everyone had to follow the neighbor. The DEFO could only play defense.

Now is where a few folks are saying, "no, no, no, the Flex/DEFO can bat!" Well, yes and no. The player in the position can bat, but then they are no longer the FLEX/DEFO since that position no longer exists when that player moves into the DP's batting position.