intentionally dropped ball
 

i just came across this in the rule supplement

if its 1st and 2nd 0 out, and a soft liner hit to SS, who bats it down/never closes their glove around it/lets it bounce off the palm of the glove... thats not an IDB situation??? it seems to go against the spirit of the rule (the same principle behind the IFF rule)

maybe the rule should be changed to intentionally not caught.....

on a side note, i coulda had a triple play a few months ago apparently.

If F6 simply guides it to the ground without ever catching it, then it's not an IDB. The RS is quite clear in that aspect.

In order for this call to be made, the ball must be caught first. It must be held securely in either the glove or hand, and its release must be voluntary. I don't know how the rule can be any clearer.

i undertand the RS is clear, its just that it makes 0 sense. i know this is softball, but there is no catch requirement in baseball, simply a LD or FB that isnt intentionally not caught (besides letting it fall to the ground untouched)

the whole point of having the rule, also applies to IFF, is so the defense cant get 2 "cheap" outs on 1 play. by having the language that the ball must be caught first, then dropped, makes it 1000x easier for a IFer to turn 2 or 3 on a line drive with ppl on base.

edit:
http://losangeles.dodgers.mlb.com/ne...t=.jsp&c_id=la

how the rule is applied in baseball, but in ASA this would have been a double play

The question most people don't get is, how can anything be dropped if it wasn't held to begin?

Of course, you are going to have some idiotic baseball reference that has absolutely no bearing on softball

A look at the history of the rules reveals why they are worded the way they are. OBR long had a rule that an infielder couldn't intentionally drop a fair fly ball in an IFF situation. Obviously, on a popup on which the IFF was called, it wouldn't matter, so the rule was intended to cover a deliberate drop on an fly ball (usually a liner of some kind) on which the IFF wasn't called. Some umpires considered letting an easily catchable ball drop as "intentionally" dropping it, so an approved ruling was inserted that allowed the fielder to let the ball drop untouched. The violation was defined as catching the ball and then letting it drop. Then the question arose concerning guiding the ball to the ground. OBR interpreted that also as an intentional drop, though they never specified such in the book.

It clear that ASA, in considering the same situation, specifically wanted to permit guiding the ball to the ground and therefore put it in black and white in its book. Had ASA not spelled this out, umpires and players could logically have assumed that guiding the ball to the ground was a violation.

If infielders could guide liners to the ground in OBR, you'd see them do it routinely. In the thousands of ASA games I've done, I've can't remember ever having seen a double play completed on a ball guided to the ground, though I don't doubt it's happened.

There was a play 2 years ago, mike lowell was playing 3rd, runners on 1st and 2nd, 1 out, HE DOVE TO HIS RIGHT(edited) to "catch" a line drive, never closed his glove on it, let it drop, tried to step on 3rd throw to first but the ump killed the play right away for a IDB.

I would say that in lower level slo pitch games, a potential IDB situation presents itself 1 in 3 games.

It's not even really a "baseball vs. softball" thing.

Some softball associations other than ASA rule this the same as the OBR baseball rules and prohibit guiding the ball to the ground. Some even enforce the out if a fielder allows the ball to drop untouched when it could have otherwise been caught with ordinary effort!

The ASA rule is clear enough, just different than some of the others. To each their own, I guess!

FED 2009 softball case book 8.2.10 B Directing the ball to the ground is considered, in the spirit of the rule, an intentional drop.

what if the rule said intentionally misplayed ball instead of intentionally dropped????

If theres a soft pop up that an IFer recieved in the webbing of their glove, but intentionally never closed their glove around the ball to let it fall to the ground, 99.9999999% of ppl would say that the IFer did not catch the ball on purpose. whether that meets the standards for ASA's IDB is another story.

EDIT: for most ppls logic not catching the ball on purpose is tantamount to intentionally dropping

as far as the baseball reference, why wouldnt i reference the origin of the softball rule??? i think that is been proven that softball is based off of baseball. in this specific instance, i highly doubt softball (ASA) invented the IDB rule and that was copied and altered by baseball.

So the question at hand is why is the IDB RS worded the way it is??? the rule is based off of the same premise as the IFF rule. in baseball, the IDB rule is governed by the premise that in IFer cannot intentionally misplay the ball (albeit they can let it drop untouched), in ASA, the IFer has to physically make the catch for IDB sit to apply.

Bretman, or anyone else that may know....

is there a website or a pdf that outlines the differences between OBR and ASA rules, like stepping on the plate, the IDB rule....

There was a play 2 years ago, mike lowell was playing 3rd, runners on 1st and 2nd, 1 out, HE DOVE TO HIS LEFT to "catch" a line drive, never closed his glove on it, let it drop, tried to step on 3rd throw to first but the ump killed the play right away for a IDB.

I'm not quite clear as to what happened. If by "let it drop," you mean Lowell allowed the ball to fall untouched, then the ump blew the call. If you mean he blocked it with the side of his glove, then the call was correct. And just because the glove didn't close on the ball doesn't mean an intentional drop can't be called. But it's hard to visualize F5 diving to his left and expecting to knock a ball down and still have time to step on 3B and throw to 1B. Well, maybe if he was positioned right near the line.

Some softball associations other than ASA rule this the same as the OBR baseball rules and prohibit guiding the ball to the ground. Some even enforce the out if a fielder allows the ball to drop untouched when it could have otherwise been caught with ordinary effort!

I know that NCAA follows ASA on permitting the guiding of the ball to the ground. I assume Fed does the same, but I don't know for sure. There are a lot of softball codes out there, and I don't doubt that some call it differently.

is there a website or a pdf that outlines the differences between OBR and ASA rules

I cannot imagine that there is any such site, but there seems to be a site for everything else, so who knows?

Actually, differences between ASA and Babe Ruth softball would get you pretty close in many areas, since Babe Ruth takes entire sections (especially regarding interference, obstruction, appeals, awards) directly from the OBR book—verbatim. For example, there are no dead ball appeals in Babe Ruth, and not only are there two types of OBS, but OBS that has no bearing on the play is not called. Good luck doing a Babe Ruth softball tournament with coaches and players accustomed to Fed and ASA.

the batter hit a line drive to lowells RIGHT, i mistyped earlier, it was my left, his right. the ball entered lowells mitt, he just never closed it, picked the ball up off the ground, was in the process of taking 2 steps towards 3rd when the ump killed the play.

Apparently, there is a belief that this is something that is easy to do with no possible down side. That is not true. There is little guarantee the ball is going to be controled after it hits the ground.

I have made this call a couple of times as recent as this past season. OTOH, I have also seen it botched more often than it being successful. The ball and the contour of the field do not always cooperate with the fielder. IMO, the "runner on 1B" requirement should be removed because if the BR isn't going to run, tough. And if it happened quick enough to turn a double play in that situation, the IDB had no affect on the play than if it were a trapped ball.

I'd also like to add that the rule, at least ASA, notes that to qualify as a IDB, it must have been able to be caught with ordinary effort. Unless a line drive is directly at the fielder, IMJ the effort is probably a bit more than ordinary.

IMO, the "runner on 1B" requirement because if the BR isn't going to run, tough.

I think you might have left something out.

Incidentally, my first post mentions IFF situation. The rule of course also includes runner on 1B and no other runners. But the rule could say, like the U3K rule, simply "when 1B is occupied."

I once called an IDB on a shortstop only to have the defense argue, "He [F6] isn't good enough to intentionally drop a ball!"

Batter should know not to do that when it's 1st and 2nd 0 outs. :D

ive heard that said a fair amount of the time, but it doesnt change the effect of the spirit of the rule, which, just as the IFF, is to prevent the defense from turning a double or triple play on a ball that the rule writers believe should only result in 1 out.

on a side note, i just got home from a game and mentioned the RS to the ASA ump and he said all the ASA umps he knows of, which im assuming is a large #, all call the play the same way as its written in the MLB rules, not the ASA rules. meaning if he, or the other umps he knows, see an IF guide the ball to the ground, they will call IDB.

I find it hard to believe that he has: Discussed this very play with "every umpire he knows", and; That to a man they have all decided to ignore the written rules of the sanctioning body they're working for and just make up their own interpretation.

Maybe he only knows, like, two or three umpires!

That's strange. Did he bother to explain why he and every umpire he knows does this? :confused:

i cant remember his exact reasoning, but he said something to the effect that if a SS guided a ball to the ground hed not only kill the play but give the player a warning for deception. this ump has been working for ~20 years and made it seem like it was pretty standard operating procedure in the boston area for slow pitch. Ive been playing softball in boston area for about 3 years (~75-100 games/per) and never seen it called the "ASA way".

as i alluded to in my OP, a few months ago, i was playing SS, 1st and 2nd 0 outs, a soft liner to my left, i guided the ball to the ground, tagged R2, stepped on 2nd and was in the process of throwing to 1st when the ump ruled IDB.

I had always been under the impression that the ASA rule was the same as MLB, so i only try it if its a new ump to "test" his rule knowledge (and bc its a bush league play). when he called IDB, i actually thought to myself this guy aint half bad and even told him nice call in between innings. now i guess i can add that to the list of times ive been screwed over by an ump....(sarcasm)

A warning for deception?

Where does this idea come from? I knew ASA umpires in NJ who called illegal pitches for "intent to deceive" and refused to call illegal pitches if "there was no intent to deceive."

no idea....

i personally think the ASA rule is dumb bc it flies in the face of the intent of the rule. its basically tantamount to saying the IFer must catch the ball in order for IFF to be invoked.

Um, how? The rule is completely separate from IFF. For IFF, you must have runners on at least 1st and 2nd. For IDB, you only need at least a runner on 1B. Also, the IFF rule takes precedence over IDB.

So how is it "tantamount" to requiring a catch for IFF?

I caught such grief.
 

I had the 1st and 2nd no one out. ASA slowpitch I'm PU. Low liner to short, no catch, guide to ground. Step on 2nd throw to first for double play.
I signal ball is down and give safe signal. Every other person on the field and within earshot thought I got it wrong and was a complete numbskull.

Partner BU is giving a not-so-subtle out signal on the initial contact with the glove, which all of the players saw. I go to him and say I didn't see a catch, and if we were going IDB he has to have control which he did not. Partner shrugs and says, "its your clal, but I think he's out and dead ball"

What a frikkin' lonely feeling. I really had 2nd thoughts, but had recently read up here (thanks a heck of a lot!:D) and knew I had the call right for ASA.

What was shocking is how no one else shared my opinion.

Sounds like some umpires took a bad practice from baseball and applied it to softball.

really?? can you not figure that one out for yourself?

whats the reasoning behind the IFF rule? its so, when runners on base, the defense cant turn a play, when the runners would be damned if they do, damned if they dont, into 2 or 3 "cheap" outs. I wont explain further bc Im assuming, as an umpire, you understand game a little about strategy.

now, regardless of what ASA's definition of "intentionally dropped" is, whats the reasoning behind the IDB rule? its so, when runner(s) on base, the defense cant turn a play, when the runners would be damned if they do, damned if they dont, into 2 or 3 "cheap" outs.

bc ASA has a very narrow definition of what "intentionally dropped" is, i was alluded to the fact that is it very similar as if the IFF rule was very narrowly defined. seeing as how in all my years playing baseball and softball, ive never seen an IF physically catch the ball, then drop it, in order to try and pull off an IDB situation, ive only seen IFers guide the ball to the ground, or not close their glove on the ball.

i really dont see how what i said was that hard to understand or to believe. i also understand that its your job as an ump to regulate the game as prescribed but that doesnt mean you have to blindly agree with every rule and fail to understand a bad rule's "hypocrisy"

i should have included this in my last post, but an additional one will suffice.

you do realize why there is a difference in the runner requirement for the IFF and IDB rules right?

on an IFF, the runner has time to run out a dropped ball, thus only requiring a runner on 1st is unnecessary bc theoretically, the D could only turn a dropped by into 1 out.

on an IDB, the runner does not have time to run out a dropped by, thus a runner on 1st is required to prevent the D from not turning 1 play into 2 outs, when the runner "cant" run on contact.

but then again, i figured someone of your softball knowledge already knew that

intentionally dropped ball
 

I can tell you that the "clinic" for City of Tampa umpires says that there is no thing as guiding the ball to the ground, call it IDB. That information has been promulgated annually for at least the past 10 years that I am aware. When asked the City UIC said that the ASA director told him that that was the way it was meant to be called, so there.

The clinicians are wrong (for ASA).

They are both wrong, too (for ASA)!

intentionally dropped ball
 

I know that they had it wrong because I read the manual, but I will guarantee that it is not unusual to hear that Tampa, Florida is not isolated in their interpretation and training. I don't umpire as much as I used to as I am an administrator for a senior softball association and we hold tournaments across the state and I have included this situation in our umpire meetings and have received similar responses across the board. I know how we call this one, because of a certain amount of enlightenment, how do we get the ASA people to call it correctly.

Protest the game.

So all rulesets for both softball and baseball have an immediate dead ball, batter out, runners return for an infielder intentionally dropping a caught (secure possession, voluntary release) fly ball. And they all permit the infielder to allow the ball to fall to the ground untouched. And they all prohibit an infielder from intentionally failing to catch a fly ball and instead guiding it to the ground, EXCEPT ASA.

So in ASA, and only in ASA, would an excellent infielder be one who intentionally fails to catch a catchable fly ball, but instead skillfully knocks it to the ground and gets an extra out or two.

Okay, got it.

Even though most players cannot process the possibilty that quick, remember it was the offense which put the defense in the situation that allows this to happen.