Properly noting a "benched" defensive player
 

As the start of the game (pregame), if a coach wants to defensively bench someone other than his DP, how should it be properly noted?


Order Position
1....... 6
2.........7
3........ 8
4........5
5........4
6 ........Not playing defense
7........3
8........DP/2
9........ 9
10........Flex/1


I've heard "10", I personally think leaving it blank is fine.

Is there a by the book way to do it?

This coach wants his flex tied to his catcher, not to the batter in the #6 spot and that is his strategy.

Wade,
There's a couple of ways you might want to note this.
"B", for BENCH as the defensive position - I thought this was a pretty "SLICK" idea. Or, you might note "HO" for hitter only. Either way, you have noted what you ought to note.

The DP and Flex can play defense together at any time. Doesn't have to be reported to umpire does it? Why do you even want to denote a "benched" player that is still in the lineup? Never heard of this creature :confused:

Defensive position changes must be reported in NCAA; to do that effectively, you need to mark it on your lineup.

I use 'B'; my teaching method is defensive bench. If DP or FLEX is out, dropping to 9, I use an 'X'.

As the other Steve said, only NCAA requires positions on the line up card. So in a game other than NCAA, why keep position changes, other than the pitcher and catcher of record, as they could have courtesy runners.

Even in NCAA where positions are required, there is only a penalty if someone is listed in the wrong position and makes a play. Therefore, you could have two players listed in F8.

The reason why the coach is asking is because so many umpires dont know the #$%$#$ rule that he gets grief at pregame and was asking me the best way to do it. He also said a UIC told him to put "10" there, which I dont agree with. I told him just leave it blank but I was just checking some other thoughts. Since this thread I told him to leave it blank and let the umpire put whatever they want there.

I went backand reread the entire thread, and realized that we skipped over something, here. What is shown really isn't legal as a starting lineup.

To be legit, the coach needs to turn position 6 as his catcher (2), and position 8 as his DP; period. As soon as the lineup is accepted as official, he then announces that his DP will be playing catcher. Let the PU then mark whatever (or not).

In that case, as I said, I would note #8 now at 2, and #6 now at B. But I wouldn't take the starting linup that way (not sure I can't, just wouldn't).

I kinda had that on my mind as well, if we were to require a dog and pony show line up and then a change.

Reading that, that might be most legal. Have the 6 slot as F2, after it official, put the flex in at f2..

Youre right, thats the best way to do it. In reviewing Rule 4 and considering eveyrthing and for the least grief for this coach from umpires, that would be the best way to do it and also it would be fully compliant with the letter of every single rule.

Thanks!
C

Wouldn't this have implications for the CR rule? I don't have my book at work but doesn't it say that in the top of the first the catcher is the player listed at that the position in the starting lineup. So I'm thinking until the DP has actually caught, no CR?
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condos in Pattaya

Nobody noticed this yet? I'm disappointed...:p

Hope the coach doesn't get a good look at your lineup card...:D

If the DP is put in as F2 at the plate conference they they are the catcher of record, thus eligible for a CR in the top of the first if they make their way on base. Again a reason to keep track of the DP's activity on defense!

Yes I noticed I was thinking if you needed to talk to that player you could just say " Hay HO" but that might land you into some hot water....best to just make defensive changes as you would offensive player subs. Make out the position and write in the new one....for the player going to the bench they have their original position marked out with no new postion listed they must be riding the pine.

Agree with original lineup must show starting positions.
And, tracking DP on defense for whom is needed to figure possible BOO and ensure less confusion about FLEX status.
Also, having coaches report all changes is less likely to have something actually need be unreported. I tell them there are 9 things they can do and I need to know 8 of them, so report all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but making a change after the linesups have been accepted as official counts as a substitution. By rule, the visitors can only use a CR for those individuals listed in those positions in the starting lineup. Since we agree that players in the order 1 thru 9 must be designated a defensive position prior to accepting any substitutions, that means #6 (who would have to be listed as catcher in the starting lineup) would be eligibile for a CR in the top of the 1st and #8 would have to run for herself.

The rule states "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the line up as the pitcher and catcher." ASA 8-10-B

Since "starting lineup" isn't mentioned couldn't the FLEX be entered for F1 or F2?

EDIT PART; Assuming of course the F1, or F2 were the DP, or does 8-10-E have any bearing? The FLEX wouldn't technically become the DP.

JEL:
I understand your point. However, I believe the intent of the rule is for F1 and F2 to receive the benefit of the CR as listed on the starting lineup. Since my lineup could conceiveably change multiple times during the top of the 1st, under your interpretation, I could have multiple CRs due to the fact as manager I could "change" who my F1 and/or F2 is during the top of the 1st.

Looks as if this would be a good case for an editorial change to clarify the matter.

Certainly the FLEX could enter for F1 or F2 after the lineups are accepted as official. However, the FLEX would not be entitled to a CR.

Speaking ASA

There is no change necessary. Actually, the rule is pretty clear.

The team batting in the top of the first is not going to have a defensive change. After that, what you have noted on your line-up card is relatively irrelevant as to who can or cannot enjoy the benefit of a courtesy runner.

While I do agree, I still see where an addition of the phrase "starting line-up" or line-up "as submitted" or (F1 and F2) "as listed by the coach" would simplify it some (to me anyway).

I think the point is what if the coach comes out and gives you a defensive change. Blue, that real slow runner who just got on, I've decided to have her catch next inning. *Turns around* Time, I've got a CR for my catcher.
Not taking the position change until it happens works great for every inning except the top of the 1st. For that we're applying common sense, but the rule could be more clear.
(Or in the incident case, at the plate meeting, I've decided to have my bench only hitter catch)
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apartments for sale Pattaya

Boy, you talk about taking something so simple, yes, SIMPLE, and turning it into a TWP-type scenario:(

If you are not taking a change until it happens, then you don't take a defensive change until the team is on defense. If the team is on defense, they cannot have a runner on base! Duh!

And what the hell is a "my bench only hitter catch"?

JMHO, but anyone who cannot grasp 8.10.A & B might want to consider not working FP.

Easy, there, Mike. I understand the rule; and I agree it's simple. That just doesn't mean it's written unambiguously. The OP had the DP starting out playing defense. By rule, that's not allowed. The DP has to start in the DP slot. The first time the visitors take the field the DP can be inserted to start playing catcher if they'd like.
That's not a substitution but I'd still write it on my lineup card to know who gets the CR. If they told me during the plate conference then I'd probably write it down then, while I had it out (or they might have done it for me). It now says on my lineup card that the DP is catching. (And there's not a rule in the book that governs how defensive position changes happen.) Now the ambiguity is that they didn't mean who was listed at the position by me as a factor in keeping straight what was happening, they meant the one listed in the starting lineup. The rules certainly provide plenty of cover for getting the ruling right.

But they would be more clear and allow less room for error if they simply said starting lineup. It would be a simple change to make the rule even simpler.
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BeautyGirL

By rule, of course, it is allowed. The DP can play defense at any time.

And would have to be listed as the catcher on the line-up card to engage the CR rule.

Unless it is for the FLEX, then it is treated in the same manner as a substitution.

Guess what? There isn't any for the offensive changes, either. Just bodies, in and out of the game. Obviously, a substitution usually involves a change on offense, but it isn't always a given in FP.

The ONLY reason teams put the FLEX in the starting line-up and make the change at the plate meeting is because the rules require you to start with the FLEX for it to be available.

And the management of it is really simple. The line-up card you have at the start of the game (which is the first pitch) is the official line-up.

This is a petty issue that no more needs addressing than the width of the foul line.

Which reminds me, if the field is lined with a really, really skinny foul line, and the batted ball stops just outside the line about half way between home and 3B, and you can sight down from the edge of home plate to the outside edge of 3B and can easily judge the ball to be inside the edges of the bases... is this a fair ball? :D

Which rule set?? Please cite.

I guess I'll have to look it up. Unless Steve has it handy since he's the first one on the thread who made the claim.
My intuitive understanding of the definitions has the DP only hitting when submitted on the line up and then everything else being a switch. If the rules don't back that up, then I agree the point is moot.
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Wellbutrin Settlement

Follow everything Mike said above; 4.3-E makes clear the DP can play ANY defensive position. Substitution rules allow them to announce that the DP will catch at the plate meeting, as soon as the PU accepts the lineup as official. That makes that person the catcher now listed on the lineup in the top of the first inning, in addition to being the DP (a move allowed by the definition of DP, because 1) that play was initially listed in the lineup as the DP, and 2) that position in the batting order is now "twinned" with the FLEX for the purpose of all DP/FLEX movements).

Once reported as a defensive change prior to the start of the first inning, that person is now the player "listed on the lineup as the" catcher (ASA 8.1-B). It meets every requirement of the written rule, and is not specifically excluded by any other rule, rule supplement, or interpretation by the NUS. Therefore, it is legal, and must be permitted.

Is it a loophole? Possibly; but we aren't permitted to interpret that this isn't legal, either. Only the NUS can do that; and to my knowledge, has not. Since it isn't completely new, perhaps you should consider that the NUS considers it legal, too?