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-   -   force out question (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/53964-force-out-question.html)

k2explorer Tue Jul 14, 2009 07:05pm
force out question
 
Hi,

I have a question. There is a runner at third with 2 outs. A dropped third strike to the batter. The runner at third ends up scoring before the catcher throws to first to get the batter-runner. My question is, does the run count?

I have always understood that if the third out was a force out, the run does not count. I was a base umpire the other day. This occurred and the plate ump said the run scored and no one argued with him.

Thank you.

Dutch Alex Tue Jul 14, 2009 07:15pm
Run doesn't count!

kcg NC2Ablu Tue Jul 14, 2009 07:36pm
you might want to check your definition of force out.

wadeintothem Tue Jul 14, 2009 07:39pm
Just to be clear in terms of rule nuance, this technically falls under a batter runner being put out prior to reaching 1B, it has nothing to do with a force in this particular instance.

Nonetheless, the run obviously should not have counted. Its actually such a nobrainer I'm not sure why they would let it go.

k2explorer Tue Jul 14, 2009 08:08pm
A follow up question if I may. So I am the base umpire. I made the out call at first. three outs. The offensive team coach asks the plate ump if the run counted and he said yes. The other team didn't argue.

Do you think I should have gone up to the plate umpire and disputed his ruling? When the teams were changing sides I did mention to him I thought he was wrong. He assured me was right so I let it go as I didn't want to cause a scene on the field.

Thank you.

Tru_in_Blu Tue Jul 14, 2009 08:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2explorer (Post 614657)
A follow up question if I may. So I am the base umpire. I made the out call at first. three outs. The offensive team coach asks the plate ump if the run counted and he said yes. The other team didn't argue.

Do you think I should have gone up to the plate umpire and disputed his ruling? When the teams were changing sides I did mention to him I thought he was wrong. He assured me was right so I let it go as I didn't want to cause a scene on the field.

Thank you.
I had a similar situation in my first year umpiring. I'm the rookie, on the bases. We have runners on 3rd and 1st and one out. Batter hits a long fly ball to the OF. Runner at first must have thought there was no way an OF makes the catch, so he's running. Runner from third goes back, tags up and scores after the catch. Two outs. Runner from first knows he's dead meat and didn't even try getting back, so the throw goes to 1B and on the live ball appeal, that runner is out. Three outs.

Offense wants to confirm the run counts and asks PU, who says no, run doesn't count because the out at 1B was a force out. Teams starts to go a little cuckoo. I confer w/ PU, and he's adamant about his ruling. Finally, I told him that the exact scenario happened to my team when I was a player and he relented. But still, only after I told the manager of the team that was being wronged that he could file a protest that would be upheld.

PU relented and we continued. We discussed briefly after the game and I got one of those "I coulda sworn..." This guy is always quick with an opinion on just about any subject and gets testy with the players a lot. So I guess I was lucky he didn't take me out to the woods, beat me to death with a stick, and leave my body for the wild dogs.

At least these days, he's a bit more receptive to listening to my opinions of various scenarios or actual game events.

NCASAUmp Tue Jul 14, 2009 08:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by k2explorer (Post 614657)
A follow up question if I may. So I am the base umpire. I made the out call at first. three outs. The offensive team coach asks the plate ump if the run counted and he said yes. The other team didn't argue.

Do you think I should have gone up to the plate umpire and disputed his ruling? When the teams were changing sides I did mention to him I thought he was wrong. He assured me was right so I let it go as I didn't want to cause a scene on the field.

Thank you.
This is a touchy subject (as you will quickly find out). The last thing you want to do is get your partner in trouble by going in and "rescuing" him. Do that, and you might as well put chalk marks under the bus.

Try to get your partner's attention in a subtle fashion. Make eye contact with him, something. But whatever you do, don't ever let your first words to a partner be, "I think you're wrong."

HugoTafurst Tue Jul 14, 2009 09:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncasaump (Post 614664)
this is a touchy subject (as you will quickly find out). The last thing you want to do is get your partner in trouble by going in and "rescuing" him. Do that, and you might as well put chalk marks under the bus.

Try to get your partner's attention in a subtle fashion. Make eye contact with him, something. But whatever you do, don't ever let your first words to a partner be, "i think you're wrong."
amen

kcg NC2Ablu Wed Jul 15, 2009 05:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 614654)
Just to be clear in terms of rule nuance, this technically falls under a batter runner being put out prior to reaching 1B, it has nothing to do with a force in this particular instance.

Nonetheless, the run obviously should not have counted. Its actually such a nobrainer I'm not sure why they would let it go.
holy cow wade... Im going to agree with you ... we dont agree often ... but wow we do here

wadeintothem Wed Jul 15, 2009 07:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcg NC2Ablu (Post 614694)
holy cow wade... Im going to agree with you ... we dont agree often ... but wow we do here
Todays your lucky day then! I suppose its proof a blind squirrel can find a nut now and again. ;)

CelticNHBlue Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 614707)
Todays your lucky day then! I suppose its proof a blind squirrel can find a nut now and again. ;)
the sun even shines on a dogs a$$ somedays

anyone can win the lottery

kcg NC2Ablu Wed Jul 15, 2009 02:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 614707)
Todays your lucky day then! I suppose its proof a blind squirrel can find a nut now and again. ;)
haha ok wade lets not jump that far into it :rolleyes:

greymule Wed Jul 15, 2009 02:47pm
"Just to be clear in terms of rule nuance, this technically falls under a batter runner being put out prior to reaching 1B, it has nothing to do with a force in this particular instance."

Though the ASA rule book seems to recognize the distinction, a couple of ASA's case plays do call the out at 1B a force out. Whether this is intentional or just sloppy writing, I don't know. From the 2007 case book 2.3-4: "B1 is out. On any force out attempt from the foul side of 1B, F3 and B1 can use either [the] white or [the] colored portion." From 8.6-1: "Because [B6 was out] before B6 touched 1B, it results in a force out. Since the third out is a result of a force out, no run can score on this play."

I specifically remember, but have not been able to find, an ASA case play/test question/rule clarification on the following example: B1 hits a short fly to F10, touches 1B, and seeing F10 about to make an easy catch, turns around and retreats back down the 1B line to pick up his bat. However, F10 drops the ball and B1's teammates yell for him to run. F10's throw to F3 at 1B beats B1. ASA's ruling was that because B1 had retreated toward the base he had "occupied" (home), he is out for reinstating the "force."

I wish I could find that one. I believe it was a rule clarification posted on the ASA site at some point in the past few years, but the site goes back through 2007, and I don't see it. I remember it distinctly, however, because OBR's ruling on the same play is that because the out on the BR at 1B is not a force, the runner must be tagged to be put out.

IRISHMAFIA Wed Jul 15, 2009 02:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule (Post 614836)
"Just to be clear in terms of rule nuance, this technically falls under a batter runner being put out prior to reaching 1B, it has nothing to do with a force in this particular instance."

Though the ASA rule book seems to recognize the distinction, a couple of ASA's case plays do call the out at 1B a force out. Whether this is intentional or just sloppy writing, I don't know. From the 2007 case book 2.3-4: "B1 is out. On any force out attempt from the foul side of 1B, F3 and B1 can use either [the] white or [the] colored portion." From 8.6-1: "Because [B6 was out] before B6 touched 1B, it results in a force out. Since the third out is a result of a force out, no run can score on this play."

I specifically remember, but have not been able to find, an ASA case play/test question/rule clarification on the following example: B1 hits a short fly to F10, touches 1B, and seeing F10 about to make an easy catch, turns around and retreats back down the 1B line to pick up his bat. However, F10 drops the ball and B1's teammates yell for him to run. F10's throw to F3 at 1B beats B1. ASA's ruling was that because B1 had retreated toward the base he had "occupied" (home), he is out for reinstating the "force."

I wish I could find that one. I believe it was a rule clarification posted on the ASA site at some point in the past few years, but the site goes back through 2007, and I don't see it. I remember it distinctly, however, because OBR's ruling on the same play is that because the out on the BR at 1B is not a force, the runner must be tagged to be put out.
Ground rule double, force out at 1b, same reason used though inaccurate.

wadeintothem Wed Jul 15, 2009 02:56pm
Br to 1b is an undefined force ;)


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