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-   -   Appeal of a 3rd out - does run score? (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/53861-appeal-3rd-out-does-run-score.html)

bd41flpk Sun Jul 05, 2009 08:06pm
Appeal of a 3rd out - does run score?
 
Scenario(s):

(1) Bases loaded w/2 outs, B/R hit a home run and misses 1st base...defense appeals the missed base Results: No runs score since B/R forces other runners and the 3rd out is now a 'force' so no runs can score

(2) 1st and 3rd, w/2 outs, B/R hits a home run and R1 misses 2nd...defense appeals the missed base Results: No runs score since R1 is 'forced' @ 2nd by B/R?

(3) Bases loaded w/2 outs and B/R hits a home run and R2 misses 3rd Results: 1 run scores - only R3 from 3rd.

Comments are welcome and rule #'s.......

I see the rules supplement only states that if the 3rd out is a 'force out' - no runs score.....however, if the B/R is put out PRIOR to 1st base, then the force is removed....

IRISHMAFIA Sun Jul 05, 2009 08:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk (Post 612584)
Scenario(s):

(1) Bases loaded w/2 outs, B/R hit a home run and misses 1st base...defense appeals the missed base Results: No runs score since B/R forces other runners and the 3rd out is now a 'force' so no runs can score

(2) 1st and 3rd, w/2 outs, B/R hits a home run and R1 misses 2nd...defense appeals the missed base Results: No runs score since R1 is 'forced' @ 2nd by B/R?

(3) Bases loaded w/2 outs and B/R hits a home run and R2 misses 3rd Results: 1 run scores - only R3 from 3rd.

Comments are welcome and rule #'s.......

I see the rules supplement only states that if the 3rd out is a 'force out' - no runs score.....however, if the B/R is put out PRIOR to 1st base, then the force is removed....
In all cases if adult SP except Masters & Seniors, there are no outs to be recorded, all runs score.

NCASAUmp Sun Jul 05, 2009 08:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 612587)
In all cases if adult SP except Masters & Seniors, there are no outs to be recorded, all runs score.
Correct. In all other levels of play (fast pitch, modified, etc.), no runs would score in any of those scenarios if properly appealed (ASA 5-5-B-1).

greymule Mon Jul 06, 2009 01:06pm
As long as we're on the subject: in ASA (except where running is not required), appeals of multiple errors must sometimes be in the correct order to nullify runs.

Bases loaded, 1 out. Batter hits a ball over the fence and misses 1B on the way around. Runner from 1B also misses 2B. To nullify the runs in ASA, the defense must first appeal the miss of 2B and then the miss of 1B. If the defense first appeals 1B, the subsequent out at 2B would not be a force out, and the first two runs would count. (NCAA is apparently the same, though I haven't seen an actual case play. Don't know about Fed softball. In baseball, the order of appeals would not matter in this case, thought it would in others.)

bd41flpk Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:52am
Runs Scored....3rd out
 
Thank you all for the comments, especially the ASA rule note.

I did leave out the fact that the level was Adult SP and the home runs occurred on fields w/o fences - hence each player had to touch their respective bases.

Still a tad confused on (3) above - '....(3) Bases loaded w/2 outs and B/R hits a home run and R2 misses 3rd ==> Results: 1 run scores - only R3 from 3rd....'

I do believe that R3 run would count since R3 is not directly involved in the 'force out' as B1 becomes the B/R? Only R1 is affected by the 'force out'? Am I correct in this understanding?

Thanks for the participation. ;)

NCASAUmp Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk (Post 612955)
Thank you all for the comments, especially the ASA rule note.

I did leave out the fact that the level was Adult SP and the home runs occurred on fields w/o fences - hence each player had to touch their respective bases.
Then as Mike said, all appeals are off. In SP, the runners are no longer required to touch all bases on a home run or a 4-base award. The only exceptions are Masters and Seniors - they, for whatever reason, are still required to touch all bases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk (Post 612955)
Still a tad confused on (3) above - '....(3) Bases loaded w/2 outs and B/R hits a home run and R2 misses 3rd ==> Results: 1 run scores - only R3 from 3rd....'

I do believe that R3 run would count since R3 is not directly involved in the 'force out' as B1 becomes the B/R? Only R1 is affected by the 'force out'? Am I correct in this understanding?

Thanks for the participation. ;)
Okay, let's clean up a little terminology, R1 is always the lead runner. R2 trails R1. R3 trails R2, who trails R1. In other words, R1 is on 3B (lead runner), R2 is on 2B, and R3 is on 1B.

In this sitch, Mike would again (as usual) be correct. Since R2 is forced to advance to 3B, he MUST touch 3B. If he misses the base and the defense appeals, that is a force out, and zero runs score (same as if the batter hit a grounder to the shortstop who tagged 2B before R3 reached it). He missed the base to which he was force to run due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.

However, again, since this is ASA slow pitch, runners are not forced to touch the bases on a home run, so there is nothing to appeal. If this were fast pitch, modified pitch, senior slow pitch or master's slow pitch, the above appeal would be granted, and no runs would score.

Make a little more sense? :)

greymule Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:42am
Still a tad confused on (3) above - '....(3) Bases loaded w/2 outs and B/R hits a home run and R2 misses 3rd ==> Results: 1 run scores - only R3 from 3rd....'

I'm sure that's an oversight. No run would score on that play, since the third out was a force out.

Oops. Apparently in ASA SP you don't have to run home runs out except in Masters & Seniors. Since 2007 I've concentrated only on FP and didn't even know that SP rule.

bd41flpk Tue Jul 07, 2009 04:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 612969)
Then as Mike said, all appeals are off. In SP, the runners are no longer required to touch all bases on a home run or a 4-base award. The only exceptions are Masters and Seniors - they, for whatever reason, are still required to touch all bases.



Okay, let's clean up a little terminology, R1 is always the lead runner. R2 trails R1. R3 trails R2, who trails R1. In other words, R1 is on 3B (lead runner), R2 is on 2B, and R3 is on 1B.

In this sitch, Mike would again (as usual) be correct. Since R2 is forced to advance to 3B, he MUST touch 3B. If he misses the base and the defense appeals, that is a force out, and zero runs score (same as if the batter hit a grounder to the shortstop who tagged 2B before R3 reached it). He missed the base to which he was force to run due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.

However, again, since this is ASA slow pitch, runners are not forced to touch the bases on a home run, so there is nothing to appeal. If this were fast pitch, modified pitch, senior slow pitch or master's slow pitch, the above appeal would be granted, and no runs would score.

Make a little more sense? :)
Understood on the clarification on the Runners - 3rd - R1 / 2nd - R2 / 1st - R3. Also appreciate the clarification that any of these runners in the: (a) bases loaded or (b) 1st and 2nd who misses a base will be declared as the 'force out' of the 3rd out - Hence, no runs can score. Appreciate it.

One more wrinke: (1) R1 on 3rd alone - B/R misses 2nd on a home run (not over a fence) - Results: R1 still scores since B/R is not forced @ 2nd - correct? If B/R did miss 1st, then no runs score?

(1) R1 on 3rd and R2 on 2nd - B/R misses 2nd on a home run (not over a fence) - Results: R1 & R2 still scores since B/R is not forced @ 2nd - correct? If B/R did miss 1st, then no runs score?

Thanks

NCASAUmp Tue Jul 07, 2009 07:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk (Post 613100)
Understood on the clarification on the Runners - 3rd - R1 / 2nd - R2 / 1st - R3. Also appreciate the clarification that any of these runners in the: (a) bases loaded or (b) 1st and 2nd who misses a base will be declared as the 'force out' of the 3rd out - Hence, no runs can score. Appreciate it.
That's what we're here for. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk (Post 613100)
One more wrinke: (1) R1 on 3rd alone - B/R misses 2nd on a home run (not over a fence) - Results: R1 still scores since B/R is not forced @ 2nd - correct? If B/R did miss 1st, then no runs score?
Both of those statements would be correct. B2 (the batter-runner) is always forced to advance to 1B on a fair ball, even if it's over the fence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd41flpk (Post 613100)
(1) R1 on 3rd and R2 on 2nd - B/R misses 2nd on a home run (not over a fence) - Results: R1 & R2 still scores since B/R is not forced @ 2nd - correct? If B/R did miss 1st, then no runs score?

Thanks
Correct and correct.

In the two situations you provide where the BR misses 2B, the key is rule 5-5-B-3:
Quote:
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of... a preceding runner is declared out on an appeal play.
You have preceding runners, and you have succeeding runners. A preceding runner is the one in front of you while you're running the bases. The succeeding runner is the one behind you. It's a reference to where they are relative to the appealed runner in the batting order.


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