What would you have done?
 

Since we're on the subject of 10-3-C, I'll toss this one out there. I was calling a game last year, and this happened to us. Here's the sitch...

ASA Men's SP. No outs, no runners on base. I'm BU. The pitcher pitches the ball for ball 1. Catcher throws it back to the pitcher, who immediately delivers the next pitch without a pause.

PU signals the DDB, then calls "illegal, no pitch." The batter swings anyway, grounding the ball past F6, who made minimal effort to go for the ball. The defense basically stopped because they had heard "no pitch" (even I heard it from B). The batter made it to 2B.

How would you correct this sitch? I'll tell you how we ruled later.

No pitch. You can't take that back after you call it even if it were wrong.
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BlackSexQueen

What ground ball? Couldn't have been a ground ball because there was no pitch. Apply the IP penalty (award the batter a ball) and move on.

I understand your partner screwed this one up, but if the declaration was prior to the batter hitting the ball, there is nothing to correct.

PU signals the DDB, then calls "illegal, no pitch."

I don't think a delivery can be both "illegal" and a "no pitch". So maybe that's where the first hint is. I think a quick pitch should be ruled illegal, and if the batter decides to swing anyway, that makes it legal.

But if there's a "no pitch" call, I think everything should be re-set to how it was prior to that no pitch ever happening.

Since the BU made both calls, he confused everybody possibly including himself.

I'd say "do over".

What about the IP called prior to the ball being put into play? You do not have to have a pitch for an IP to be called.

A quick pitch is an infraction that results in DDB and a verbal call. Section 7 of SP pitching rule.

A no pitch [Section 9] effect is that the ball is dead, and all subsequent action on that pitch is canceled.

My position is that it was wrong to call the pitch both illegal and no pitch, because they have different effects.

The umpire erred in adding "no pitch" to his verbal call. The DDB signal and call of "illegal" was correct up until he added on.

What we did
 

Yeah, the PU admitted to me that he just had a brain fart. What he actually meant to say was, "dead ball." If this had happened a few years back, the PU would have been sort of right, as the ball would have been dead for the violating ASA 6-1-? (I forget the article). An automatic ball would be awarded to the batter. However, a couple of years ago, ASA removed the part about it being a dead ball, allowing the batters to hit a pitch that was delivered without the required 1 second pause.

Since the PU effectively killed the play by declaring "no pitch" (when he meant to say "dead ball"), we brought the batter back to the plate and counted the illegal pitch. We told the OC that he had the opportunity to protest the call if he thinks we got it wrong, which he declined. The batter then popped up for an out. Fortunately, the team ended up winning the game handily, so the bad call had minimal bearing on the game (unless you're one of those butterfly theory kind of guys).

Tell your partner to make sure he pops into the confessional before Mass this weekend. ;)

I'm going to disagree. I don't believe you can ignore the infraction which took place prior to the umpire's error. The pitcher shouldn't get a pass on an attempt to cheat (and this was obviously the pitcher's intent) because the umpire screwed up the effect.

send the play to your asa reps.

In FP, if we have a ip followed by a no pitch, both are enforced. Regardless of that, I agree that the IP can not be ignored. Apply a penalty. No free ones for violating a pitching rule.

Yabbut, doesn't the batter swinging at the illegal pitch cancel? Rule 6.7 Effect D. If a batter swings at onr contacts any illegal pitch,it is nullified and all play stands.

'Cept of course for the little matter of the "no pitch" call.

The defense may have attempted to cheat, but the offense attempted to take advantage.

So there!

The whole situation was a fuster cluck from the moment the PU said, "no pitch." I don't think there's any real good way to clean this up other than what we did.

Needless to say, I was pretty pissed at the PU. However, I think he does a lot of FP and MP, and SP may not be his stock-in-trade like it is with me (since that's all I ever do). Believe me, I've been reading rule 6 over and over again for the last 19 or 20 years. I know that's no excuse, but it does put things into perspective.

Offense did what it was allowed to do. They did nothing wrong as taking advantage implies.

You can't "do over" the IP. Once PU said "Illegal" you've got a ball on the batter.

While I am inclined to agree with awarding the ball, it isn't this simple. In SP, once PU said illegal, you've got nothing. You've got a pitch that unless struck at will result in the award of a ball. You don't have a ball until the pitch is completed without being struck at. The defense was deprived of it's opportunity to have the batter attempt at the pitch by the ball being called dead.
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How To Roll A Blunt

Not so. When I'm calling SP and see a flat or over 12' high pitch, I'll call "Illegal!" If the batter swings and hits the ball, I immediately say: "That made it legal!" or "It's legal now."

Most batters know they have the option of swinging at an illegal pitch and will live with the results. Many batters seem to actually like those flat pitches.

Since in our OP, the batter contacted the IP, the IP is canceled. And we're left with just the "No pitch" inadvertant call. So if'n that's all we're left with, I doin' a do-over. Course I'd hope to never be in that position in the first place. But maybe my partner who's calling the plate that game will be the one to brain fart. :eek:

Where is that in the umpire manual? You shouldn't be saying anything.

I don't understand what that has to do with the fact that the pitcher violated 6.1.C & 6.7

You just said it, THERE IS NO PITCH FOR THE BATTER TO CONTACT!!!

Mike, I'm still wrestling with this one a little. I generally agree with the approach, but please let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. I understand that there can be no pitch because the umpire had called the play over. But if there's no pitch for the batter to swing at then there's no illegal pitch for the batter to swing at. In which case, why are you awarding a ball?
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AVANDIA CLASS ACTION

Think fp...pitcher does some thing before releasing the ball that makes the pitch illegal.... ( no pause,etc...) The runner on 1b leaves before the pitch is released....what do you have???

I say a lot of things that aren't in the manual. I might say "Wow! That was a great catch." or after F3 throws home for a tag play at the plate when s/he had a play at 1B for the third out: "Gee, I didn't expect that." I think you've said it before that the rule book can't contain every possible situation and scenario or it would be many volumes long. If it's in the book, you should say it, example: verbalize obstruction. But if it's not in the book, that doesn't mean that you can't say it.

For the 2 rules that you've reference, the ball will need to be delivered to the batter in order for the violation to be called. At that point a PU can call "Illegal!" If the batter does nothing, a ball will be awarded to the batter. However, if the batter swings the IP is canceled. So at that point, you'd have the result of the swing. PU called an IP, and the batter chose to ignore that information and take his chances anyway.

That only leaves the addtional call of no pitch. Since the IP has now become moot, the only thing to deal with is the no pitch. The batter hit the ball, but because of the no pitch call, it doesn't count. Bring 'em back, do it over.

Seems very simple to me...

I read that one in one of the ASA plays and clarifications, I think. That's fine, but our OP deals with something that an umpire did which caused the confusion. I don't think the rule book has a section on how umpires might extricate themselves from situations where they made the incorrect call or a premature call.

Right handed batter hits a ball off the end of the bat with a lot of spin. The ball is rolling down the 1B line and the PU calls it foul. F3, still waiting for the ball to perhaps kick in to fair territory, tracks the ball down the line. Batter stops running due to the foul call. Ball finally does kick in fair at which point F3 picks it up and tags 1B. Uh, oh! Now what?

Yes, they do. It is called 10-3.C. In the case book they have plays where the umps made the incorrect call and how to extricate themselves. These plays or this play is under section 10 in the case book. There are 3 in the 2009 case book where ump makes a call that is incorrect and an out results. The umpire can rectify these situations.

Now as you can see, the "umpire did [something] which caused the confusion" and the umpire can rectify it. In FP, even though the player killed it, the ump declared no pitch, the IP is still not canceled. Why do you think because the ump declared no pitch, the IP should be canceled? I am not getting hung up on the particular of who caused the no pitch when I have clear indication from the front office that the enforcement of an IP is not canceled because it is followed by a no pitch call. Furthermore, given ASA difficult task of training 39,000 umpires, do you think they want two versions of what to do with an IP followed by a no pitch? I do not.

If everyone emails this play to their UIC's and regional UIC's, a definitive answer will come. Until then, IP stands.

Ron

Thanks.

The ONLY words that should come out of an umpire's mouth when a ball is put into play is "foul" or "dead ball". Anything else and you may place the BR in jeopardy. As a player, I have often been in tournaments where there would be some umpire who would say "good ball" or "that's in there" only to have the BR stop dead in his tracks because he heard the umpire verbalize something. There is a reason we do not verbalize "fair".

Sorry, Ted, you can attempt to justify this as much as you want, I think you are incorrect and would rule in that manner if protested.

It's not analagous. Besides the one being the natural result of the play as mentioned by someone else, the penalty for an illegal pitch is quite a bit different and not trivially nullified.
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BombitaSquirt live

Because the violation occurred. There is zero argument about that.

Would it have been different if the umpire said "dead ball" instead of "no pitch"? The status of the ball is that same, if the batter hits the ball, it is still dead. The "no pitch" declaration was a misapplication of the effect, doesn't mean there was a misapplication of the rule.

And to reiterate, that's what the PU had going through his head. He meant to kill the pitch with a "dead ball," but accidentally said, "no pitch."

In years past, failure to follow any of rule 6-1 (the "preliminaries") WAS a dead ball. Now, with one exception (simulating a pitching motion while not in contact with the pitcher's plate), any violation of 6-1 is an illegal pitch, but the hitter may still attempt to hit the ball. This change was made only a couple of years ago, so the old rule (which had been in place at LEAST since I started umpiring in '93) was still fresh in his mind.

I think there is a little confusion here. An IP has always been a DDB during my years in SP. According to the 2000 rule book, 6.1 was part of an IP, it no longer is.

However, a pitch does not necessarily have to be thrown for there to be an IP.

I'd have to dig up an old rule book, but I remember quite clearly that a violation of 6-1 was a dead ball. I don't recall when exactly it changed, but it was sometime around 2006 or 2007. If you have a 2004 rule book, I'm pretty certain you'll see that a violation of 6-1 is a dead ball, not a DDB.

[quote=IRISHMAFIA;611050]The ONLY words that should come out of an umpire's mouth when a ball is put into play is "foul" or "dead ball". Anything else and you may place the BR in jeopardy. As a player, I have often been in tournaments where there would be some umpire who would say "good ball" or "that's in there" only to have the BR stop dead in his tracks because he heard the umpire verbalize something. There is a reason we do not verbalize "fair".
quote]

The need to keep our comments short is at a premium.
I have worked a National where an umpire called "Fair Ball."
The confusion that resulted almost caused a riot. (bet you would have never guessed that it was a Men's D).
If the ball is fair and it is real close to the line, POINT! but say nothing.
If a pitch in SP is too high or not high enough say "Illegal" but nothing else.
When you start talking, someone is gonna screw up and you are going to be the one that gets blamed because you opened your trap.
BEEN THERE, DONE THAT! No it wasn't me in the National but I was on the field and had to eject two players because they wanted to beat the PU's a$$. Of course I wanted to do the same thing but he was my partner.
The Tourny UIC was Henry Pollard and he ended up having to get the cops out there to calm the teams down.

Like Mike says, anything you say CAN put the runner in jeopardy and it is your fault.
We all know how much we suck, just ask a fan or a player who isn't playing well.:rolleyes:

If you want to advace your game, don't be a homer and add commentary to plays or to non-verbal calls.
Use your signals and verbals when you are supposed to.
That way you can't be misunderstood.

The violation did occur. We agree on that. But this is where you end your argument. I say because the batter swung [and contacted] the DDB & IP become nullified.

Whatever the umpire said after "illegal", whether dead ball, no pitch, is what we're debating. If the umpire said nothing after "illegal", maybe the SS would have fielded the ball maybe not. Maybe the batter gets a base hit, maybe not.

But since the IP has now been accounted for and canceled, it's the umpire's job to make it right. And since the IP is gone, at least in my mind, I'm not awarding a ball to the batter. And that's the only thing this whole string comes down to, whether or not to award a ball to the batter.

Would you make that award in a tie game in the bottom of the 7th, bases loaded and a 3 ball count already on the batter? I wouldn't make it in the first inning on the second pitch. I'd call illegal on the quick pitch/DDB and then see what happens from there.

To quote: "Sorry, Irish, you can attempt to justify this as much as you want, I think you are incorrect and would rule in that manner if protested."

Crap, don't tell me that! I'm calling the Men's D National this September... :eek:

After reading my own reply, I wonder how things would have changed if the batter swung and missed the ball altogether.

Since the ball would not have been put into play, would a strike call stand? If anyone thinks that a strike call should stand, why would you think that a ball should be called if the batter hit the ball?

Where is it held this year?
The year I did it and this happened, we were way short on umpires and that is when we first went to the now common two man with the BU in B all the time.
I remember starting games at 6:00 AM and not leaving the fields untill 1:30 or 2:00 AM.:(
Long days but we had some more kind of fun too.

I think that in both cases, what happens next depends heavily upon the influence the umpire's screw-up had upon the play. That's the whole point of 10-3-C: that an umpire's mistake does or does not put the offense or defense in jeopardy.

In your case, what would happen next would depend heavily upon whether or not, in my judgment (and that's the key), I felt that my screw-up had any influence upon the batter's actions. If, in my judgment, I believe that I unduly influenced the batter's actions, I might kill the play and award a ball. However, the more likely scenario would be that I'd still count the swing and miss as a strike.

There's a vast difference in being able to field a good 80 MPH line-drive up the middle, and being able to swing a 34" long, 2.25" wide bat at a ball coming towards you at a gentle 8 MPH. :p

You're killing me, Scott!

More specifically, I'm going to the Men's D Eastern National in Salem, VA.

Does anyone else notice the oxymoron?

You will have a good time, don't worry.
What happened to us was a bunch of no show umpires that caused the schedule to get messed up as well as a whole lot of Central Florida downpours that made the fields sloppy for a while.

Have fun, listen to the whining, you can hear it now..........
Nah, at the Nationals, most of the whining is far less than you will hear any other time.
Just be ready for the bat issues, happens every year.

Who is your UIC?
Get in touch with him/her and be prepped.

Oh, I'm not worried too much about it. Honestly, the only thing I'm worried about is having to buy more pants. Some of you might remember that I quit smoking back in January, and I went up a pant size. Unfortunately, that means that all of those heather greys I bought last year will no longer fit, assuming that's what we're using this year (haven't received my packet yet). I believe Mark I. from the NUS is the UIC this time around.

It would be nothing because there was..............................anybody? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

a no pitch called by the umpire. the ball became dead. thus, it is irrelevant what the batter does. the ball is dead, dead and more dead. you must enforce the ip cause ASA has already said you do so when an ip is followed by a no pitch call. if the batter hit it out of the park, nothing, no home run and then scott's fum starts again. Say what you are suppose to say and only when you are suppose to.

Well I am going to go dig up my 2009 nus drill book and shoot an email to the head honcho cause somebody will only listen to him. If he agrees with somebody, the rest will have to eat crow.

When has ASA ever said this for slow pitch?
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Hyde Park Residence Condo Pattaya

When has ASA ever ruled a do-over? Never. So now take all info you have about IP followed by no pitch and you are left with only one thing to do.