2009 advanced FP camp
 

1. Wade, there will not be in NCAA mechanics coming into ASA. Mike has explained the reason why and Kevin says if 200 NCAA top flight umps can not get rimming correct, then 39,000 ...

2. Tom, dropped third strike: Umpire's judgment as to whether interference occurred. Did not go into situations with this as felt not right moment and never brought it up again.

3. Mike, getting rid of LBR. Brought this up with Malcolm and got OK as response. Went no where.

4. 2009 umpire manual section does not have the mechanic for a play at home plate where runner misses plate and no tag and what to do. That is an omission and will be back in 2010. It is on page 186 in 2008 rule book.

5. They asked for input on how to improve the camp and drills, so if any of you have any ideas send them to Malcolm and Gene. There email addresses are in the manual. Of course, we gave some ideas but you guys can suggest too.

6. The hammer. No NCAA hammer or whatever it is. "Emily Alexander never taught it or forbid it" (Julie Johnson). A couple high ranking ASA umps did it one game in NCAA tourney and then reverted back to the ASA way cause they still want to do the big ASA, World, etc dances. And no need for a big one on every strike. Certainly not on a pitch down the middle. Verbal is the strong call.

7. On strike three after you have pulled you bow or whatever, square back up so you are ready to move either way.

8. Hell will most likely freeze over before you can go to foul ground for a play at first base on ball hit to right field. Get inside or as a last resort, open up.

9. On force plays at first base (no such thing), follow the DVD. It is the gospel.

10. On swipe tag at first base, one of the instructors told us what he has done. Instead of going towards the line which does nothing for your angle, he moves to his right to get a better view of a tag or no tag.

11. 3 man mechanic. All umps stay in on ball to outfield, ie a ground ball, line shot through the infield. PU yells 3 man.

12. Communication is lacking from NUS staff's perspective. There is not enough of it.

13. Keith Kerney and Scott Thomas are going to World Championship this year. My understanding is the men's.

Questions? If I can answer em, I will.

Ron

There's a shock, but shows there may be some light at the end of the tunnel.

It is also on page 108 of the 2009 rule book, RS #1.I[quote]

And when you are on the line and the play brings F3 directly toward you to field a batted ball and the play is to F1 at 1B, where are you going to go?

Anybody remind them that it isn't possible to have a force play at 1B?

Hmmm....where have I heard that before? :D

Sounds like an OOO sexist pig.

Believe that was a huge issue at last year's Advance SP Camp.

Sorry, no context. Ball hit to right field, play at 1B.

Already fixed that.


Only 15 campers this year.

Gotta agree about rimming. I was working a NAFA tournament and practicing rim and I got caught behind the runner when left field pooched a can of corn that suddenly turned into a triple. Its not that great of positioning. I'm fast enough that it didnt hurt too badly, but had I been inside, I would have done better. Rim is great to be lazy. Its purpose is so you dont come in unnecessarily. Of course you never really know when that is. You never know. Rimming has no place in 2 man mechanics at all.

Do not agree on a ball hit to RF or any congested play at 1B where fielders are converging to the umpires calling area or a ball will be thrown through there. But thats the way it is. There are times when the best 90 is in foul territory - to eliminate that removes any need to be a student of the game for plays at 1.

In fact, you should go there in many instances, PU take 2-3 and BU rotate home.

I guess thats too complicated though for the 38,999 umpires.. so thats the way it goes.

This is my once (or maybe twice) a year agreeing with Wade. In 3 man...I can see staying outside at 1b, because you have 3u in front of you to come up and cover 2nd. Its a HORRBILE mechanic in two man. Younger (inexperienced) umpires MUST be taught how to get inside and get all the elements in front of you. Its a basic concept. If you stay outside you WILL get stuck behind a runner on an overthrow, bobble, etc if you are not careful, and possibly even if you are. The local hs organization experimented with the mechaninc this year, and all I saw was new umpires getting caught, and getting in the way of throws...

No comment on wade's notion that BU should rotate home in 2 man?

Interesting concept he proposes.

Wade, would you like to clarify that mechanic? I'm open to hearing what you have to say about it...

On another site, someone made the comment that problems (drop, bobble, misplay, etc.) happen often enough that our mechanics including a planned hesistation are based around those scenarios.

My response was that our mechanics especially a hesitation are taught in anticipation of being prepared for the rare and infrequent problem. The standard plays are easy, but the "surprise", unexpected misplay is when an umpire is really put to the test.

Getting caught out of position or making a call trailing a runner doesn't seem to be that big a deal until that one time you just cannot see a play and miss the call because the runner or fielder moved in an unexpected manner. And, unfortunately, that is the call EVERYONE is going to see and remember. :(

Any time BU's job is to pick his nose while PU's job is at 3, BU should be home and actually have a job besides relaxing spectator.


Another example than above is hit and run or bunt (R1@ 1B) where the out is to 1B and PU takes the banger at 3B. BU should be home.
What else does he have to do?

Why should PU be forced to follow R1 home if the play goes that way?

BU should be gainfully employed covering home.

Its common sense.

No comment on wade's notion that BU should rotate home in 2 man?

That's so easy, it is almost embarassing. One simple sentence, "Who is covering 2B?"

For the hit and run, if there was potential of a play at 2B - (Ie the BR is safe or there is a run down)

BU would never rotate home.

BU would only rotate home with communication to his partner when he is no longer employed.

This same concept applies when he is "out and should stay out" - such as an outside foul line call at 1B.

Well at least cover home. BU doesnt need to spectate or cheerlead the PU, they can be employed at home.

IF BR is safe on the hit and run - BU should never rotate home.

I dont think that would be too difficult to teach to a national level umpire.

Even texas baseball umpires understand it ;)

What were the questions/contexts behind these two?

9. On force plays at first base (no such thing), follow the DVD. It is the gospel.

10. On swipe tag at first base, one of the instructors told us what he has done. Instead of going towards the line which does nothing for your angle, he moves to his right to get a better view of a tag or no tag.

I do not remember a context for this one but it was emphasized a couple of times so I thought to mention it.

When we went to practicing drills, the instructor took it upon himself to add this.

Don't know about #9, but #10 was discussed ad-nauseam here.

Cecil, let me try to expand on this and give some context.

We were at the stations for plays at first base and the instructor brought up the swipe tag sit. He explained everything that others have about how moving to line offers no good angle and that pu does not have a good angle either and what they DVD said. But just like we have to move on swipe tags at other bases, he explained what he has done. Of course, we do this cause we have read the throw, can see it is off and the 1b is going to have to move or jump and so we move to the right to get a better view.

Now can we do that with all UIC's and not get a negative. I don't know but the NUS does want the ump to do more than get to the starting position. They want us to read and react appropriately to get the best unobstructed view. Julie did mention once to the umps: "Guys, we don't want you to be thinking where do they (instructors) want me but where do I need to get to get the best view." The four instructors at the school support that. Will all UIC think like that? We hope they will cause they are getting this philosophy from their superiors.
So, I think a play like that would be good to bring up in the ump's meeting before working with an unknown UIC.


Ron

2010 FP Camp
 

Hey Ron, or anyone, has there been any mention of where the fp camp will be next year? I have heard it will be in California.
Thanks

They did not mention where for next year.

You mean this guy? http://blog.lib.umn.edu/maasx003/Vik...nown_comic.jpg

Wade - you say this (emphasized above), but in another post you say that an umpire should not be spectating while his partner is working.

My question on the situation posted above is: What was your PU doing? Assuming that you started in A position with no runners and were staying on the rim on the fly ball to left, your PU should pick up third for you. This is how I always pregame the rim mechanic. (except in any games I work for Darrell!)

I am a supporter of the rim mechanic for 2 and 3 umpire mechanics, but I see it as an advanced mechanic that should only be employed by experienced umpires.

Dave,

Still waiting on an answer :rolleyes:

Wasn't my suggestion, so hell if I know. :)

Though I do agree with the concept in general. BU should be allowed to rotate home IF (and ONLY if) there are no other responsibilities at 1B or 2B (ie., batter hits a triple and could head home).

As long as there is a runner between 2B & 3B, how can there NOT be a potential play at 2B?

If a player hits a triple, it isn't the PUs call anyway.

I agree about the nomenclature.

The NCAA does not have a strict adherence to the "inside-outside" theory. "Working the rim" is one specific case (base hit to LF with no runners on). Working "outside" has two underlying aspects: 1) there are two calling positions for every play (one inside and one outside); 2) the umpire can read the play and work inside or outside, which ever is beneficial to the play.

As for the first aspect, on runners on, and the BR tries to stretch a single (to LF) to a double. I can stay outside, work parallel with the runner, and be in a calling position at second that is outside. I've made a few out calls like this (2 umpire system), which I 1) never lost my priorities (obs at first, BR touching first, obs at second), 2) did not cross the path of the runner or 3) turned my back on the ball.

As for the second aspect, well, this is the key. Some umpires stay outside just for the sake of staying outside (i.e. laziness). If the BR hits a triple, or what looks to be a triple, then you can't stay outside. Staying outside does have it's place, but as Andy stated, it is an advanced technique, and should not be taught at the basic or LCD levels.

I'd say i think it can be read when there is potential of a run down, and that mean that I dont believe the BU has reached the "unemployed spectator" status.

That status happens when the play at 3B is obvious and PU is then forced to trail the runner home on the broken play at 3B.

Lets say BU did go home early or read it incorrectly, PU would probably have to pick up the slack by taking 2B temporarily while BU readjusted.

Certianly, whatever reasoning would make someone think PU couldnt cover 2B on that, should preclude you from believe you could cover home and 3B on that. Both bases are 50-55 feet from you.

I agree with Big Slick. All systems are not fool proof for all situations. In order to work at any level, you need to be able to read and react. There are times that working the outside edge will work ,and other times it will bite you in a bad way.

Pardon my ignorance, but why is it inappropriate?

Check your private messages. I am NOT explaining this one publicly. :p

Rachel, you're sick. :)

Unless I'm totally wrong. Then I'm sick.

Should we stop saying the player or umpire blew the play/call or the wind is blowing? Guess Bob Dylan can no longer perform "Blowin' in the Wind".

Now I know why the gallery emits oohs and aahs when a the golf ball rims the cup or the basketball rims the hoop. I always thought it was because it was such a close and exciting shot! And what is that thing called a rimshot? That must really be disgusting!:rolleyes: And what about that Ride the Rails to the Rim Tour of the Grand Canyon? :eek: Probably don't want to go there.

Wish people would keep their "moral idealogy" in their own circles. Don't they realize that if they consider something inappropriate, vulgar or disgusting, it is their mind looking for the worst in something that causes it to be so? It's like shooting yourself in the foot and then wondering why you are having a difficult time walking!

Okay, done with that, at least here.

AFA the BU rotating home. I'm still trying to figure out how the BU can be unemployed anytime with a single runner. This "old" mechanic cannot be done without leaving 2B uncovered. Until the runner actually gets to 3B, there is always the possibility s/he can reverse course.

I actually had this happen last night. R1 tagged up at 1B on a long caught fly that was at about 320-325' deep. He had good speed and was more than 3/4 to 3B when he realized he was dead and reversed direction. I was in a holding zone watching my partner bring him to 3B.

If I had moved into the field to take the call and my partner broke off to cover home, neither of us would have been in position to make that out call on the throw back to 2B. Luckily, my partner (new umpire) correctly stayed with the runner and made the call.

F.Y.I. This is a general comment and not directed toward Rachel or specifically to anyone else on this board.

You can't be that "out of it" or ignorant as you say....

In the politically correct invironment we choose to be involved with..it is an extremely offensive term to some coaches and players. Maybe not to you....but to them!!

Just like "rubber" was...and is now refered to as pitchers plate or pitching plate...simple enough.

We can work the mens game and their political correctness (what they are offended by) is different than a female game and their political correctness (what they are offended by)..the question is... are either more correct than the other?

I agree with Rachel...it's inapropriate verbage in the female game.

I had no idea what it meant until I googled it. But the meaning that disturbs some is endemic to a discrete linguistic and social subculture. And until the wider linguistic community socially ostracizes those who use the verb rim within its current and most understood etymological boundaries, I can only politely respond--take a hike.

In the context of softball, the context is absolutely clear and making the verb into a gerund is a function of our linguistic box. Language evolves and you ain't telling me what it means. No sexual context is implied. In my Alice in the Wonderland, the word means exactly what I say it does.

Maybe be your environment, it isn't mine. If you find it offensive, that is your option, one that I do not care to share. I've more important things to worry about in life.

Again, your environment. Never thought much about it, but as part of the rules I learned and have referred to it as the pitcher's plate since I started umpiring in 1966. In the 1936 version of the "Softball Official Rules" publication, it is defined on page three as the Pitcher's Plate. So, if you find that phrase "rubber" as offensive, it is something that you and those with whom you associate were using, not those who love the game. Yet, if you listen to those who announce softball games including females, they will occasionally refer the PP as the rubber as a matter of simple reference. I do not.

I don't care if the participants are male, female or pink transexuals with purple polka dots, it is simply a word or phrase that carries no more inference or power than what you are willing to fear.

Which is why our society has evolved..or devolved..depending on your point of view...

Because some people do care about color, sex, sexual preference...there were many who thought the "N" word was simply a word or phrase. That has changed?

Put yourself in the other persons world... if you dare.

They may care more than you about color, sexual innuendo, or sexual preference...does that make you right? Or ignorant as you suggested?

Otherwise...I can't believe you are using the "talking heads" as you have so many time called them...as your frame of reference and justification!

Might be why there is value in knowing your audience??

Doesn't always matter what you think it means!!

So, if one of our umpires uses one of her favorite catchphrases about someone "blowing it out of their @$$," we should do what, stone her? And which method of stoning her, throwing rocks at her or forcing her to party with Michael Phelps?

Sometimes some of us doth protest too much. This is not a PC world, and this is definitely not a PC avocation.

Oh, and I can go back into the 1800s on the whole pitcher's plate thing (it's baseball, but still...), so if you are going to blow the PC whistle on something bring some credibility to the table there, fella, er, ma'am, er, sir, er, oh, just shut up and get over the whole PC thing.

I am the first to complain about the whole political correct concept...don't get me wrong...I would never give some things a second thought in men's ball.

If you are naive enough to believe it doesn"t matter in other arena's...then who am I to try and enlighten you?

This is absolutely however... a PC world...and absolutely a PC avocation...

I remember my parent's...missionaries...who would not travel to a different culture until extensively studying a specific culture. Their language, customs, clothing, food...etc..careful not to offend someone different than they.

If you don't think there are different cultures within umpiring...then good luck doing the alternative life style nationals in Monroe!!

Oh hell, what did I start?

Guys, let's just stick with the NCAA definition for today, m'kay? :rolleyes:

Careful, there... ;)

Oh hell... :p

I didnt invent it. I use the term to describe a term in active use as part of softball officiating.

I cant worry about if a particular umpire is offended by it and its not my job to ensure you live your life offense free. Unfortunately, I have real troubles and concerns in life, so there just is not room for your particular hang ups. Sorry.

In a word,

Get over it.

I'm Mac!!! :D

Been watching a little too much South Park lately??? ;)

Office Space. This year's the 10-year anniversary.

Ronald,

Sorry this got off topic.

So, how did you like the camp? Was it what you expected? Do you think you gained anything from it?

What was the instructor/umpire ratio? How was that phone in the stadium?

The ratio was 7.5 to 1. I did not get to work on the stadium field. I saw someone try to use the phone but do not know if it was working. Another ump said it was not.

I have company so will get back to you on the other points.

Ron

Found this via the other thread
ASA Softball's Photos - 2009 Advanced Umpire Fast Pitch Clinc | Facebook

Looking at the photos, 2 of our umps went. I had thought only 1 had gone. We represent yo!

I am the ump at the plate in pic row 1 column 5, ie all the way to the right.

Oh yeah, that IS you! Funny, I saw these pics before, and I didn't catch that...

Glad to hear you went, man! It's a great way to move up the ranks. :)

I also have a picture of you from the NUS on Day 2. It's from the plate drills, and you were the runner.

Overall, I enjoyed the camp, instructors and fellow umps. For me, the best part was the attitude and availability of the instructors. They made it a point to tell us they were there for us and to ask questions and gain as much info and wisdom from them. They surpassed that standard IMO and I took advantage to talk with them about mechanics or softball. Malcolm Boyles is passionate about softball and umpiring and enjoys discussing it and you often saw him talking about some topic related to softball with a small group of umpires. The staff realized that changes need to be made to parts of the first 2 days. A pertinent example concerns the DVD. Most umps had already seen it and so that could have been skipped.

We received a schedule of the events for the 2 days of instruction so we knew what to expect. So those expectations were met but there was a couple of little things I had not heard before. For example, no need for a strong sell hammer on every strike. The verbal is the sell. Do a hammer like Keith Kerney and you nailed it. On the third stike, Julie likes you to look at the area where the ball was caught, and after the punch out or bow out, make sure you square up again. Kevin and Julie thoroughly covered plate mechanics, stance/timing/tracking/set up, etc. I had hoped for a deeper discussion and guidance concerning interference/obstruction and things to look for to assist in calling this.

I gained a better appreciation and understanding for the staff who dedicate their time to improving umpires. I had been to the National School earlier and given the number of students, the staff was overwhelmed with everything they were trying to accomplish. It was much easier to see and sense how the staff enjoys teaching and assisting umps in a smaller group.
They are more relaxed and energized. 75-100 students is way too many, unless you get 10 or so NUS there.

The fields at the complex are set down from the stands. This allows those who want to study umpiring a perfect view to see plays develop and how umps move. There were some who thought it was impossible to go in on a hit to right field. I saw a couple of instances where an ump did it and a couple where they did not. It is possible. I can put that in my experience and be assured that I can get in when the play happens. I used to do it automatically and will have to retrain myself on that one.

That's enough writing:)

Ron

Well this weekend both of the attendees from are area were at the same tourney as me and I worked several games with one of them. He gave me several pointers. Tweeking things such as one step to get set, knee is one fist back from the catch etc. It was good to work with them with this clinic so fresh in their mind. I was able to fine tune myself a little I think. Some other things -

Had two elite FP umps there as well and both were suprised at the strictness of no calling form the out side on a ball hit to FP - both were Merle FP advanced camps and had different takes but definately listened to them so they learned what NUS is wanting taught so we can all pass this info on to the other umpires..

Wade,

Did they tell you about how to set up based on the arch of the catcher's foot?

Yes, because it was the assoc championship and 1 game on 1 game off, we set up a little mini clinic and they ran through the entire set up it between a few of the games. Good stuff.

Not that I agree with everything, but when it comes down to performance, I do the mechanics to the best of my ability and want to do it right. .. then I come here and whine. ;)

They also took a little heat when ever anything happened on the field.. like "they teach you that at advanced camp.. :D"

More detail, please:
"one step to get set, knee is one fist back from the catch "
"no calling form the out side on a ball hit to FP"

Please, I'm curious as well. BTW you'd think that ASA would consider selling a packet with a DVD of highlights as well as presentations of the weekend. I'd buy it.

Was able to debrief some over the past weekend and got it in two languages, American and Canadian.

Unfortunately, this would probably damage the camp.

As with things like the mechanics DVD, this board and a few other resources, too many umpires would sit back and figure they have it covered instead of attending the appropriate clinics, schools and camps.

I don't buy it (No pun intended) ;). The umpires that want the knowledge and instruction will still get it. If ASA's intentions are altruistic then they would want to get this knowledge out to as many umpires as possible.

That is why there are clinics and schools. The information is already there, you just need to go get it.

Yeah, but you shouldn't have to drive 4 hours to go and get it if there's an easier alternative. Not to mention the added value of being able to crop, edit, etc.

They are working on a DVD for late 2010 or 11 as I recall.

Cecil,

The one step as I recall refers to getting set with the heel toe stance. On rh batter you put your right foot behind the catcher and then your left foot naturally swings around to where your toes should line up with the arch of the catcher's feet. It is important that the catcher is in the his/her final position. Once you do this, you should not reset your feet. GPA should be there and correct distance from catcher. That is what I think the poster means by one step. It is the initial get set.

Now once you have done this, go set. Your knee should be a fist or fist with the thumb out from the catcher's back. Also if your back is straight in a natural way, they do not mean straight up and down, then your shoulders should align vertically with your knees. If your head is where it is suppose to be, you will have an unobstructed view of the outside corner. Actually you have a really open view of every thing and if you track from release point to catcher's mitt, man what a view! If head is at right height, you will get the outside pitch at the knee right every time or 99% of the time.

Preaching to the choir, but, track the ball with your nose. Make it your eyes. The eyes follow the nose. You will see the ball cross the plate and go into the catcher's mitt. And on pitches that the catcher catches right at the ground, your head will move like Tracey's did in the WCWS. As a side note and may be a repeat, she got a call from someone asking whether she still wanted to do the big tourneys or just college ball cause she used the NCAA strike mechanic in her first game. She responded to the effect of I will fix it.


Side bar before next point.

Julie recommends the following for batters that crowd the plate and make it difficult if not block ump from seeing the pitch leave pitcher's hand. Stay where you are as if not blocked. You will be able to see where the catcher catches the ball up or down on the inside pitch. Call it a strike and by her reasoning the batter will back off. That is what she does on those insidious plate huggers.:D

No calling on outside. I think that is a typo. Think writer meant, could be wrong, 1b. Don't go foul territory unless absolutely, or 1 in a million situation where you have to. This is the best way, especially for 39,000 umpires, speaking ASA.

Hope that helps.

Ron

There you go again with the four syllable words. Didn't you get the memo????;)

Most of the time the rest of Texas won't allow memos to make it out here to our little outpost of paradise.

Memos? Who needs memos? We don't need no stinkin' memos!!!

I missed his post but you said it really well. Thanks! Thats exactly what I was talking about and what was told to me by other attendees about positioning.

Ive been working on that stuff.

I agree and must admit that I am in a prime situation as it pertains to location. Then again, I also have to deal with some umpires who refuse to travel 40 minutes to work a tournament or attend a clinic or school.

However, that is why there are Deputy UICs and local/district/association UICs. The way it is supposed to work is that the state/metro UIC is trained to train other umpires. This is supposed to be the purpose of the Nat. UIC Clinic. In turn, the UIC is to train and provide as much information in a convenient format to the Deputy UICs,et al, to bring that to the local UICs and umpires. In an ideal world, this should mean everyone should be doing making the same calls and rulings from the same position. Then again, in an ideal world......nevermind.;)

The problem arises when there is a breakdown in the chain and someone either doesn't do their job or decides that because they disagree or think they know better, this or that is passed along the the local umpire who believes they are getting the same as everyone else.

Granted, I disagree with quite a few things ASA teaches and will voice my concerns. (okay, I know I heard at least a dozen people just say, "no ****!) However, I never hold back anything ASA instructs from any umpire. When an umpire from my area goes away, they have been instructed on everything ASA wants from them.

The primary job of a UIC is not to get umpires prestigious National tournaments, NIF, Elite or whatever. It is to train them well enough to earn those assignments and awards.

And I consider myself very fortunate to be able to make a local call to our state UIC, not a long distance one. NC ASA is fortunate to have a state UIC who will make the drive himself to hold multiple clinics across the state, directly involving himself with the training of our umpires. The nearest clinic for any NC umpire is about an hour, maybe an hour and a half away. Maybe that's just "part of the job," but it's apparent that there are other organizations where this could be improved. Personally, I think Phil does a tremendous job, which is probably why he was publicly praised at the 2009 UIC Clinic.

ASA has been making some amazing strides into the 21st Century. They're very active on Facebook and Twitter (multiple messages per day on each site). They created a training DVD that is the envy of other organizations, and I've heard that there is another in the works. They certainly still have a ways to go, and I think they could make better use of technology: DVDs, programs on the internet, etc. I'm not sitting by the sidelines, as I've even offered to assist them in this process. This will make it easier to get the message out to the masses and get everyone on board. However, in all, I'm very pleased with the progress ASA has made, even within the last year alone.

OK, heard all that before, just not the cryptic identifier or the elaborate geometry.

If you mean not coming down the line from A on a ball hit deep close to 1st, I see, but disagree.

yes

I was thinking ball hit to F9. I believe you can go foul side on the play you describe above. I heard my UIC say that was permitted by ASA on a play like that.