how to catch batter being out of batter's box
 

I had a recent game (16-0) where the losing coach jumped all over me about a batter being out of the batter's box. This is a coach who's pitcher couldn't find the strike zone if I spray painted the strike zone for her. He seemed to be far more interested in nit-picking the rules with me rather than coaching his team because his team was just AWFUL, i've never seen more mental mistakes combined with a lack of talent in all my games. I really wanted to tell him: "Look at the scoreboard, if you spent half the energy you're spending by arguing with me, maybe your team would be somewhat competent..."

Anyways, he then jumps on me for calling a borderline pitch by his pitcher a ball, which I have to admit that I kinda froze on because I was surprised his pitcher actually threw something that good. Another problem was, the previous batter maybe had been slightly out of the batter's box when she hit a grand slam, and he jumped on me for that, so I stared at the batter's feet and only saw the pitch out of the corner of my eye...

so how do you look for the batter being out of the box? some of my senior umps tell me that the batter has to be all the way at the pitcher's circle before they even bother calling it...of course they're exagerrating but usually, I may take a quick glance at where the batter is after the hit and if they're reasonably close, I give it to them...since it is something that is in my peripheral vision, if i see it, i see it...

And he also argued with me on that new bunt attempt rule. The opposing batter held out to bunt, and just as the ball came, she started to pull back, I figured, good enough for me, Ball! What exactly is the ruling on that? I figure if the batter starts to pull back, it's good enough for me since the rule never said that the bat has to be withdrawn "completely" from the zone, so I interpret that as a "start to withdraw" is fine...

If a slapper sets up forward, then there is a good chance they could be out of the box. Their pre pitch positioning sets off my radar.

Their foot must be COMPLETELY outside the box when contact is made... thats not usually going to happen with a regular hitter.

NFHS rules - if they pull it back or are pulling it back, that would be good enough. They arent holding it there and they arent offering, so its not a strike.


Your problem was not rules, it was game management. You should have shut him down, he was a cancer of that game and was violating the rules when arguing judgment. You had him and let him go.

I watch the ball all the way in, nothing can happen without the ball. When the bat makes contact with the ball I quickly glance at the batter's feet. If their feet are in the box no problem, if not "DEAD BALL! this batter is out!" The key is to develop a routine, do the same thing the same way every time you will get the same result.

Wade is right. That coach must go, or at least shut up.

Anyways, he then jumps on me for calling a borderline pitch by his pitcher a ball, which I have to admit that I kinda froze on because I was surprised his pitcher actually threw something that good. Another problem was, the previous batter maybe had been slightly out of the batter's box when she hit a grand slam, and he jumped on me for that, so I stared at the batter's feet and only saw the pitch out of the corner of my eye...

So the guy jumps on you because the batter may have been out of the box when she made contact???

Then claims you missed a pitch??

That's easy to answer:

"Coach, I didn't see a strike, so I can't call it... but I can assure you, the batter was in the box":D


BTW, she wasn't "slightly" out of the box.... she was or she wasn't....

Install land mines around the batter's box. If they trip them, they're out! :D

Nah, that won't work. You would lose too much time to everyone cleaning up because of the blood rule. :cool:

Can't speak for FP or MP, but I'll toss my $0.02 in for SP. BuggBob is absolutely correct in that nothing can happen without the ball.

Remember: we're always working in priorities.

As the pitch comes in, my priority at this time is the pitch crossing the plate. I focus on the ball, of course, but keeping the batter's movements in my peripheral. In my peripheral, I can see if they're starting to reposition themselves to try and chase that outside pitch, or if they're going to swing their lead foot out on an inside pitch.

Once they hit the ball, my priorities change. I determine "is this ball going forward? Up? Back? Did the batter miss?" If I determine it's going up or forward, and I might have a split second to look elsewhere, I'll check the batter's feet. If the ball is going back, I've gotta watch for a foul tip. If the ball isn't well-hit, or if it looks like it's going to the sides (and have to worry about it hitting the batter) I focus on what the ball does.

It's difficult to describe what goes through one's mind when calling behind the plate, as there are so many things to focus on: the ball, the batter, the feet, the runners, the fielders, the hot moms. However, I believe if you begin to think in terms of priorities, it will all become clearer. If a coach whines that you missed a batter making contact with their foot out of the box, just tell them, "hey, coach, I couldn't see it, because I had to watch this, or watch that." If they can't accept it, "sorry, coach. Play ball."

Regardless, I've gotta have the entire foot out of the box at the time of contact, and I'm not going to call it if it's only a quarter of an inch or so. It has to be CLEARLY out of the box if I'm going to call it.

Edit added by me. :)

Very, very true. If their foot is still in the air when contact is made, bad form, but not an out (unless their other foot is completely out of the box and on the ground). :)

Thanks! :D

No such thing as hot moms in slow pitch...they're hot potential steals! ;) :D

Have you ever seen obstruction without the ball?
Have you ever seen a missed base withouth the ball?
Have you ever had USC without the ball?
Have you ever had runner assistance without the ball?
Have you ever.....

Well, you get the point. Yes, knowing where the ball is and seeing it is usually a must. However, it is not necessary for an umpire to perform their assigned tasks.

I've seen too many umpires hang their hat on the theory that nothing can happen without the ball including an ASA DEPSPVR who gigged an umpire a few years back because he buttonhooked and watched BR touch 1B instead of finding the ball in the outfield (it was 290' away).

The phrase has a place in officiating, but is completely situational.

Coach here.

Can the BU make the call that the batter is out of the box?

Umpires work as a team and any umpire can make any calls but as a coordinated team certain calls are made by specific umpires who may ask their teamate for his/her assistance. Some over zealous base umpires may offer their opinion without being asked and that can lead to mistakes and is highly frowned on but not against the rules.

Good example, BU has the batter to third by convention, PU calls him off, "I've got third", error on play and batter heads for home and the BU is already there to make the call at the plate. They are working as a team.

Bad example, BU calls batter out for being out of the box because he sees a foot in front of the plate, only to find out that player wears a size 16 and his heal was touching the line. Bad teamwork leading to a lot of unnecessary confusion.

He can make the call but probably shouldn't unless his partner has specifically asked him to watch for it on certain batters that for whatever reason he can't see their feet.

Or else they are very confused in their mechanics! :rolleyes:

Is it allowable? As has already been mentioned, certainly. Does the BU, from around 70 feet away have the ideal view to make the call? Of course not.

What? You've never called off apartner in a two man on a long ball hit down third? Or do you not cover the plate when you release at 2nd?

The BU should not make that call unless it was so obvious, the CIA could have picked it up during a satellite passover.

The BU has the pitcher's feet, the pitcher's motion, the baserunner's and possible check swing, batted ball off the batter or ball hit second time. Combine that with only a 2-dimensional view and the BU has no more ability to make that call than the lady selling hot dogs in the concession stand.

So this could be apochryphal and is being told about fourth-hand here, but...

Two fine umpires working for an organization not represented by SMSUA. Girls FP. PU is blocked and can't see the batted ball hit the (right handed) batter. She's easily thrown out at first. OC asks PU to get help from BU, who is in C.

They (of course!) don't come together to talk. PU doesn't remove mask, points to his partner, and shouts, "Did you see the ball hit the batter?"

"Yes! AND she was out of the box."

Sounds like an FYC to me.

In a two man system, the general rule of thumb is the BU NEVER makes a call at home. It is taught this way in all of the clinics, in all of the manuals, and in the recent ASA DVD.

Also, with no runners on, the BU should take the runner all the way to third. If I call them off in this situation, that means that they either a) fell, b) tripped and almost fell causing them to lose several steps, or c) aren't doing their job.

I worked an ASA SP rec league last night. The field was lined and we even started with batters boxes that appeared to be roughly correct, i.e. 4' forward, 3' back, and 3' wide.

Second player of the game stepped out of the front of the batters box with his left foot and hit a fly ball to the outfield. I called dead ball and the batter out for contacting the ball with one foot completely out of the batters box.

We had a little discussion about it, but since the fly ball was caught, the batter didn't make too much of an issue of it.

Anyhoos, first game ended in about an hour as we were done by about 9 PM. We're waiting for one team to scrounge up their 9th player and didn't get started until 9:30. In the interim, I had some discussions with some of the players from the first game [and others] regarding the batters box.

I heard that the batters box on the field was a "little league" batters box. I heard that there shouldn't even be a batters box for ASA slow pitch. I heard that you could start outside the batters box prior to the pitch. I heard that you could actually [legally] hit the ball if one foot was completely out of the batters box. The last point was apparently confirmed as "legal" by another umpire at one of their games as there was much head-nodding and agreement. I heard that the batters box dimensions had been changed this year and when I asked when, I was told in April [maybe]. I heard that a lot of these guys play in NIT ASA tournaments and that's why they know these things.

My partner_du-jour concurred with all of these points and even offered that the slow pitch rule for the batter in the batters box was different than that of fast pitch, and perhaps that was why I was confused. I told him that I'd have to check on that one.

So I came home and scoured the rule book. I looked first at the 2009 changes and then Rule 2, the Playing Field. I didn't see any changes to the batters box dimensions. I logged onto the ASA website and looked at the rule clarifications and plays for 2009 which included the months of March, April, May, and June. I found no references to the dimension changes of the batters box.

Then I thoroughly read Rule 7 Section 3 and Section 6. I was particularly enamored with Section 6 The Batter Is Out.
D. When an entire foot is touching the ground completely outside the lines of the batters box at the time the ball makes contact with the bat.

I couldn't find that passage referenced by ump_du-jour on the differences between slow pitch and fast pitch, so perhaps I have an outdated edition of the 2009 Umpire Manual?

In the 2007 rule book, the batters box for slow pitch was temporarily widened from 3' to 4', but this change was later rescinded. And as far as I know, the dimensions are 3' wide by 7' long.

So, if I've missed this critical rule update, please advise and provide a reference so I can follow up. I feel terrible that I may have made a bad call on the batter, even though he would have ended up out anyway.

Good news, Ted. You are right, the players and your weak partner are incorrect. More likely, they are confusing ASA with another org.

If you deviate communicate
 

Have you ever heard "If you deviate communicate"? There is nothing wrong with deviating from the mechanics. The ASA Mechanics manual even says so. Now I don't deviate much because I believe that in most situations I see no reason to. And you should have a good and logical reason for doing so. For example, I will call my partner off at Third if I have to go up the line on a ball hit to left field. Why not? I'm already there. To suggest that they are not during their job is not accurate. They may have 4 games in a row that night and the PU is trying to save the BU's legs. There's nothing wrong with taking the call at Third in this situation. However, you should pre-game it. Again, I don't deviate much, but when I do its for a good reason. Not just because I don't like the mechanic. I never deviate for that reason. In fact calling my partner off at Third is the only time I do deviate. Every other instance I follow the prescribed mechanic.

The way I read this, that is all Scott did, gave his "good reason" as to when he would deviate.

I was thinking he was saying "that aren't doing their jobs" if they deviate.
That's what I was disagreeing with.

Yup.

Ejection...right then, right there....firm and emphatic. This guy was tip toeing around "crossing the line" all game. At that moment (based on your post) this giuy crossed it. Toss him. No more problems with all the other stuff that followed.
Please note that I said "this guy crossed it".In another game if a guy has been a "good citizen" all game, and gets all over me on a borderline pitch...the ejection while not as quick, we be coming shortly after if he doesn't immeadiately calm down when I remind him that "you're not going to argue "balls&strikes coach."