crazy play
 

Had a weird play this past weekend....I was on the bases so it was really my partner that had the play....

ASA Fast pitch

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, and R3 on 1B (bases loaded)
0 outs
Batter hits a ground ball to second.
Second baseman throws to first for the out.
R1 breaks for home. The throw from first is caught by the catcher who is standing on home. No tag is ever made on the runner. The runner seeing the catcher catch the ball and thinking he is out, slows down and walks/jogs around the plate never touching it.
Meanwhile, the catcher throws to third trying to get the next runner.
The ball goes over third and into the outfield and the runner continues home and scores.
It is not until after the play is pretty much done that R1 goes into the dugout.
What do we have?
A) Is R1 safe unless an appeal is made that he missed home.
B)Is R1 out when he enters the dugout even though a runner behind him scored or
C) is R2 out for scoring before R1 therefore passing a runner?

We ended up calling R1 out and allowing R2 to score, but I don't think we got it right.

This had to be a girls' game correct? What age group?

MTD, Sr.

Absolutely

No and one has nothing to do with the other.

No, since that never happened.

That is correct, you didn't get it right. You have no basis upon which to rule R1 out without a proper appeal by the defense.

Yes. ASA 8-3-B.

No. What you're probably thinking of is that a runner may not return to touch a missed base if a following runner (in this case, R2) has scored (ASA 8-3-G). Once R2 scored, R1 can do nothing but pray the defense does not appeal the missed plate. But if (and only if) the defense appeals... Bang, you've got an out.

Nope. No appeal was made by the defense, so no out can be called.

Hate to say it, but you're right. Well, about not being right, that is. :)

It happens, you live, you learn.

thanks guys

and Dave you are right...I did get mesed up on the whole not able to touch after the next runner touches the plate thing.

Its funny, I knew when we were making the call that it wasn't correct, but my partner and I both for some reason thought we should have an out.

The teams were cool with it.....and we moved on.

How would the mechanics on this play work? The same as if the catcher missed the tag and the runner missed the plate, hesitate with no call and then rule the runner safe, or in this case, declare both runners safe?

Wait until R1 passes the plate and verbalize "safe" while moving into position for subsequent play. As the PU with multiple runners, you are not moving far away from the plate area, so this shouldn't be that difficult. Once R2 crosses the plate, R1's subsequent actions become irrelevant to any possible appeal, so you can now concentrate on the rest of the play unfolding in front of you.

I'm adding "No tag!!", then "Safe" on R1. Doesn't sound like there was a play on R2, so no call made at all on that runner crossing the plate.

Then, wait for the appeal; if none, move on with two runs scoring.

Would you tel the official scorer? Would you wait until a pitch had been thrown to tell the official scorer?

I think you would have to tell the scorer or there would be a mess later on. However, if you tell him before a pitch is thrown, you put the runner in jeopardy if someone who has half a brain hears you. I hope this play never happens to me.

Joe in Missouri

Tell the scorer what? Already called the runner safe and will probably offer the number of outs prior to the next pitch.

In a sitch like this, the defense may not know the run has score until you tell them the # of outs. It is even money the scorer will be clueless, as well.

Then Mama Gump was right, Stupid is as Stupid Does. Sorry, but that is not going to be my issue and if they don't figure out what is going on......

to quote Andy Sipowicz
 

....Then you will be holding a bag of crap later on unless you know how many runs scored in that inning and make note of it.

No, I will not.

When everyone thinks that the game is tied in the bottom of the 7th but it is actually over, how would anyone(including you) know?

Why would you not want to alert the official scorer? You do so on a timing play.

This play is weird enough that it warrants some action on the part of the umpire.

I look for the clean end of the stick, not the poop covered one. In this case, you will be holding the poop covered stick and denying that it stinks.

Joe in Missouri

You can think whatever you like, I will not have a problem.

Only announce a run scored when appropriate during a play in which the third out was executed. I do not ask a team nor need to know the score and there is no reason to talk to a scorekeeper except to report a substitute or ejection.

So, how are you going to know when the game is over? Even if you are not going to communicate with the scorekeeper about this issue, are you at least going to write down how many runs scored in that inning?

I ask again, what if you are going to the bottom of the 7th in a game that is over? Would you even know it was over? If this sitch happens to you, I hope it goes 16:D

Why make things difficult? I prefer to make thins easy.

Joe In Missouri:D

Thanks Mike and Steve...either of those works for me.

I would think that a call of "safe" on the first runner along with the umpire having a different number of outs from the score keeper, somebody is going to figure something out quickly.

You dont need to know the score in the way that coaches, players, and fans do - but it is an aspect of the game that is at times part of umpire a) duties and b) good officiating.

We are responsible for enforcing Run Rules and game ending run situations. We need to know tie games. It is important you understand certain game situations as part of umpiring and being a student of the game. Most often as PU, I keep track of the runs as part of what I do between innings.

It is not a sin to talk to people involved in this game and the level of play (championship/tournament/friendly) may determine how you must approach that. If its a regular joe tourney I may ask the book to run and grab me a cup of coffee in between padding her kids stats. I wouldnt do that in championship play :D If you do need to talk to the book - talk to the book.

What you CANT do is something horrible like I saw a few weeks back.

Umpire loses count.. goes to the book :rolleyes: Book says count is 2-2. Other team is complaining the count is 2-1. He says "We gotta go by the home book - home book says its 2-2, so its 2-2". They say, well they arent the home book, we are. Ump says, "ok counts 2-1". :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, he never did go to his partner. That was so bad, it was a little humorous.

The winning team will tell me when there is the possibility of a "run rule" application or when the game is over. Sometimes, even the losing team will tell you, unsolicited.

Even in local games, the teams will tell you when there is an issue. If there is an issue, that is the scorekeepers' job to get it straight, not mine.

BTW, I never said I wasn't aware of the score, I just don't need it or ask for it. Teams give you all sorts of data and don't even know it if you are paying attention to what is going on inside the fences.

Or I can just look at the scoreboard.:D

Back to the play. The once-taught, still used mechanic on plays like this or an "assumed out, but safe" on the front end of a double play was for the umpire to reiterate the unanticipated call after the fact if the umpire believes it is necessary.

If a team cannot figure out, "safe, no tag!" means the runner wasn't out, maybe they need to find another sandlot in which to play.

Not questioning your mechanics, Mike (ok I guess I am), but... if there's no touch of the plate and no tag, why would I not have a "no call"? Is it because F2 was standing on the plate?

Seems to me that, in this case, calling R1 safe after she passes the plate would call attention to the fact that she didn't touch it.

That's how I'd've handled it... obviously wrong... trying to improve my skills.

In ASA, that is how the umpires are instructed to call the play. I'm paraphrasing the passage: If there is a missed tag and the plate is missed, the plate umpire should hesitate slightly to see if there is an attempt to tag out the runner. If there is no attempt, the umpire should declare the runner safe.

An initial no call indicates that you have nothing but if the defense does not attempt to retire the runner, you have to indicate in some manner that the runner acquired the base.

Because you are umpiring softball. :D

No, more likely to bring the attention to the point that it was not a force play.

(ASA 8.3.B) "When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to have touched that base."

So, lacking a tag on a non-force play, the runner is indeed safe once s/he passes home plate. Doesn't mean the defense cannot appeal the runner missing the base.

R1 should be called out for waiting so long. ;) :rolleyes: :D :D

As I read the OP and this question, the missed tag was quite a ways up the third base line. Since there was no play at the plate, why would you make any signal at the plate? So you'd signal R1 safe on the missed tag and then make no call whatsoever at the plate, no?
________
Jomtien condos

IF you read the OP, you would notice it clearly stated there was "No tag" which is why the runner is not out.

That is because there WAS a play at the plate which was also clearly stated in the OP.