Tag up Question
 

This played happened to me in a varsity game last night
Runner on 3rd base fly ball to left field, fielder catches ball and runner from third tags up as she is halfway to plate opposing coach yell she left early blue,as the runner slides into plate(touches home and retouches) offensive coach yells come back to 3rd, my question is does the run count or she stays at 3rd(I left her at 3rd base)Thx

She cant unscore herself - run scores.

Are you saying the runner scored, and then went back to retouch 3B, and that in your judgment she DID properly tag up?

If so, she scored, and the re-touch is a nothing.

If I'm reading this correctly, the runner acknowledged through the direction of her coach, that she left early. In returning to 3rd, she properly retouched the plate and returned to 3rd without the defense making a live ball appeal.

I don't see anything wrong with this, leave the runner on 3rd.

NEI(Not Enough Information)

Ok, A slightly related though tangential question:

What if the same sitch except she clearly did not leave early. The Defensive coach was yelling she left early and she returned to 3rd before she ever got home? Would that be obstruction on the coach's part? If, in your humble opinion, the rat was doing it to confuse the runner.

Never thought of it before...never seen it happen.

Joe In Missouri
Strep throat....too much time on my hands.

Ha! That there is funny I dont care who ya are. :D

Ok - the runner did leave early. She has touched home plate. Can she go back and retouch third? When does she lose her right to return and retouch if she left early? Is her right return to tag up over when she touches home? When she enters the dugout? (assuming the ball is still live)

Leaving early is an appeal that you can't rule on until asked by the defensive team. If the OC is telling the runner to return to third, even though she really didn't leave early, what action as the umpire do you take?

My two cents is that the runner can return to third if she thinks she left early even after touching home (she would have to retouch home on her way back). Since you can't rule on the leaving early appeal until asked by the defense why would you not leave her at third if she voluntarily returned?

Because in the scenario, as I understand it, she didnt leave early, she scored. There is no rule facilitating the removing of a legal score.. so its senseless to allow her to stand on 3rd when she is done.

I might just leave her there myself, and that is funny.. but just for the sake of a rules discussion - I dont see how you can unscore it unless there could be a valid appeal (ASA 5-5).

This is much the same as continuing any number of plays that get continued after an umpires initial call (heard or unheard) "just in case".

"fielder catches ball and runner from third tags up"

This statement from from the post is pretty clear that she tagged up and then went home. Run scores, remove her from third and put her in the dugout.

As stated you can not unscore her.

So you are saying that what the runner (and offensive team) thinks does not matter. If the runner tags up properly (does not leave early), she scores even if she returns to third on her own. You can not rule on whether the runner did or did not leave early until the defense appeals, so the runner only has her own and her coaches input to rely on. Rule citations, please.

What if the defense plays on the runner mistakenly returning to third and does not retire her (which you are stating that they can not). Another runner advances during the play (let's say we started with runners on first and third). The runner is now standing back on third and you take her off and count the run. The DC now argues that the other runner should be out because the runner returning to third violated (high school) 8-6-18 which states that a runner who has scored may not interfere with the defense and that continuing to run the bases and drawing a throw may be considered a form of interference.

You have not addressed what you should do in this case if the runner does leave early and when a runner at third loses the right to return to third to properly tag up.

The umpire did not "unscore" her. The runner or her coach thought she had left early and the runner returned to third to remove the ability of the defense to put her out on appeal. What rule prevents a runner from returning to third base in this case?

This must be the only play in all of softball where the opinion of the coach and the players is more important than what the umpire actually saw.

Cue Rod Serling: YouTube - Twilight Zone intro.

Rethink this one, Marvin. What rule takes the run off the board, if the runner has legally scored, and no appeal can make her out? Does her running meaninglessly back to third have a rule that takes the run off the board?

If so, please cite that rule. If not, take the scored runner off third base.

Uh, yeah... thats what I'm saying.. hell its darn near sig line worthy.

What if she runs counter clockwise around the bases and retouces each one? Does she get to bat again? After all, her coach said something!:p

Those who have answered to this point have conveniently ignored the other aspects that could arise from this play.

Can a runner who leaves third early on a caught fly ball return to third after touching home? What would that runner need to do in order to return to third legally? When does the right to return to third end?

Would a runner who thought she left second base early (but did not), rounded third and then returned to second (legally retouching third on the way back) be put back at third by the umpire?

What about the possible interference scenario if there is another runner on base? The runner who reached home is returning to third because she thinks she is in jeopardy of being put out if she does not, but according to the positions taken here she is a runner who has scored and could therefore be guilty of interference if she draws a throw.

I can not find a rule that addresses these possibilities and would like to know what rule or rules support your conclusion that the runner can not return to third. Until there is an appeal by the defense the only information that the runner has to base their actions on is from them selves and their coaches.

Without digging out the book - a runner who has scored who hasnt entered db terriroty must be given the opportinity to complete their running responsibilities - so they could return to 3rd. ASA 5-5 advises when there is a score.

The two rules are not mutually exclusive, they may stand alone.

Errantly returning to 2nd base from 3rd base does not include the "score" factor, so that would be a nonissue.

The only question really is the one you you need to answer: by what rule could you remove a score? She scored, its in the books. How can you justify removing it by rule?

We have had this discussion before.

It all comes down to whether the player left the base early in the umpire's judgment.

If the runner left early, sure she can return as long as a trailing runner has not scored.

If the runner did not leave early, then she scores. HOWEVER, if she scores and then decides to return to 3B with other runners on, you MUST be willing to call the INT if the defense makes any play on that player. There are no two ways about it.

But how many times have you made a decision on a player's reaction? How many umpires have told a coach about a catcher attempting to pull a pitch into the zone that "if she didn't think it was a strike, than why would I?" And I cannot count the number of times I've heard the old "there is no way I'm calling a pitch a strike when the catcher turns her glove over to catch the pitch!"

Not saying we should allow coach/player comments/actions dictate rulings, but in real life it is, at times, taken into consideration.

Plus.. youre gonna get yelled at and be the only person within 150 square miles (including likely your partner) who thinks the run scores.. :cool:

Ah, but those are things the umpire did NOT see, and is using the players for supplemental information (exception: using it as a teaching moment for the catcher). If the runner tagged up, she cannot "untag" just because either the runner or the coach (or both) is unsure.

I agree on the interference call. I think there is a rule about that. ;)

They weren't in the OP... :rolleyes:

I agree with Dakota.. the only time we call by reaction is when we didnt see it.
If we saw it, we gotta call by what we see.

Most of the time anyway.

:D

I gotta call as a reaction to what I see! :D

Actually, nothing was really in the OP that decides this issue without clarification. For as much as we know, the runner did leave early which is why I qualified my response with that possibility.

Just because Andy typed tag up after catch doesn't mean crap as he cannot type both simultaneously. If one wants to pick nits for the purpose of advancing their opinion, the OP stated the ball was caught and the runner tagged up. It didn't say the ball was caught then the runner tagged up.

In the first instant, the actions could have been relatively simultaneous subject to an umpire's judgment. The latter specifically notes the order of events and places the scenario beyond that of supposition.

So there! :p

Well, I agree with that, as my first post in this thread says:

If she tagged up and reached home plate, a run will be given to her regardless of her going back to 3rd base

Im no expert but I think that if the runner didnt tag early, that the run would score (I dont know of what rule pertains to this part) but i think that if the runner then proceeded to go back to 3rd and draws a throw, then she violated ASA rule 8-7-P.

How?

She did not. She was fulfilling her baserunning obligations.

8-7-P refers to a runner who has either been put out or has scored and no longer has any baserunning obligations. Be careful with that one.

NCASAUmp,

obviously you know a lot more than Ill ever know, but if the runner legally tagged and scored, how would they have further baserunning obligations? Whats the difference between legally tagging, scoring, running back to 3rd, and scoring on a single, running back to 3rd?

Easy! I misread your post and thought R1 didn't tag up on time. Oops? :)

Oh, boy!:rolleyes:

Where are you going with that one, Mike? ;)

No, the question is where would YOU go with it. :D

Absolutely nowhere. Don't care to. Too damn hungry to bother getting into a pissing match online. ;)

Speaking of which... I think I'm off to forage.

Indeed...he is a "Mac guy" afterall.

That was my cheapshot for the day, time to go hide now. :D

Oh crap!

Hey now... I know I've got Mac allies on this board... Don't make us assemble to form Mega Mac-o-Tron...

Ah yes, the MacBorg with their iPhones, iPods and iMacs. You will be assimilated by the one, the only, the arrogant Steve Jobs. :)

With any hope! Now let me get back to my iPhone game... Work's boring today.