Routine Situation and Odd Ruling
 

Had this presented to me last night, and after the discussion, I was just dumbfounded at the ruling. Reason for my dumbfoundedness: we had a thread about this, from the ASA code, and apparently there's a huge difference in the baserunning rules between ASA and USSSA.

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, with no outs. Ball hit hard to F6, who is close enough to R1 to tag him while he's still standing on the bag. F6 does NOT touch 2B, but rather throws to 1B retiring the batter-runner while R2 is still on the bag. F3 then tags R2. How many outs do you have? (This actually came up in an USSSA slow-pitch game, so our local UIC called national to get a ruling)

From our previous thread, I had said there's two outs, R1 on the tag, and the batter-runner on the force, and R2 is safe because the force was lost before he was tagged. Before I tell you the ruling we got from the USSSA national office on this, I want to see what you all have to say. I'll wait till later today before I post the answer I got from our UIC during his phone call.

I have the same as you. Unless they had tagged the runner at 1st before they stepped on the bag, the force was removed the second the batter/runner was put out and the runner is now legally entitled to 1st base.

Not having called U-Trip since 1996, take my word for its weight in gold (meaning: nothing). I can't imagine any rulebook that would rule any other way than what you described, given the situation as you described it. Once the BR is retired, all force plays are off in this situation.

The U-Trip ruling must be different than that or there would be no reason for your post! I can't imagine why they would have any ruling other than exactly what you have- two outs on the play and R2 safe at first base.

There might be some miscommunication somewhere, which can happen with a somewhat complicated play. Even your brief description had me scratching my head and re-reading the play- it says that F6 fielded the ball "close enough to tag" R1, but doesn't actually say he was tagged! Then you get to the end and it says "R1 was out on the tag", so you imply he was tagged and that changes the whole call if someone assumes he wasn't tagged reading the initial description.

Maybe the "official" USSSA ruling really is different- it wouldn't be the only strange rule in their rule book. If it is, then they are the "odd man out" in not just the softball, but also the baseball universe!

My guess is the different ruling from U-trip national was a result of a misunderstanding / miscommunication. I can't imagine otherwise.

That is what I am thinking.

My GUESS is that if the U-trip ruling is different is may be because somewhere along the way the right person talked someone into a "we shouldn't reward R2 for not running" ruling and someone else thought it was a good idea to have such a rule keeping the force in place even though the trailing runner was retired. Or it could be due to miscommunication. :D

OK, so far we are all in agreement. Now, to make it interesting, what do you all THINK the ruling is? I'll post the "correct" (in USSSA's eyes) answer later after you've all had your chance to be crazy over this.

I'm guessing that the part we are missing is the tag on R1 while still in contact with the base. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that USSSA doesn't consider that forced runner in jeopardy while still in contact with the base; so their ruling might be only the BR is out, and R1 and R2 are still safe on the bases they never left.

I'm still not clear on this point: Was R1 tagged by F6 while R1 was standing on second base? If so, I have two outs (R1 and BR) and R2 remaining at first base.

If R1 was not tagged, I have one out, the BR.

Once F3 caught the ball and touched first, the BR was out and the force was removed. R2 is no longer forced and may remain on first.

I am not familiar with USSSA rules, so this is my "logical" reasoning.

The only other possibilty that even remotely comes to mind is some type of interpretation that says R2 interfered with F3 by staying at first so R2 should be declared out as well........I'm interested to hear the official USSSA interp.

:confused:I couldn't even begin to guess..

I read the original post 10 times before I realized that this:

"who is close enough to R1 to tag him while he's still standing on the bag"

means this:

"who tags R1 while R1 is standing on 2B"

I initially read the former to mean that F6 was close enough to R1 to tag him but for some reason did not apply the tag, and I was wondering why that fact was relevant beyond simply depicting the play.

I see the same two outs that everybody has cited. I know that U-trip has had some "outlier" rules, like awarding only 2B to a runner who is returning to 1B when the ball is thrown into DBT, but I can't imagine that a forced runner enjoys some sort of immunity from a tag until he leaves his original base.

Sorry about my original post in red...your quote is better and what I meant.

What you stated in blue is not correct anymore, since they've gone to two bases from where they were at the time of the hit no matter if they were going back or not.

You'll crap your pants when I tell you the rationale.

Nope, though I did bring up that possibility and the UIC said not to be considered. :confused:

I am going to guess three outs in this sit. By tagging the base at first get the BR, the fielder held the ball while contacting the bag that is also contacting the runner on first; electricity gets you the third out.

Since Steve has half the answer, I'll give out the full answer: We have 1 out on the batter-runner, R1 and R2 are safe. Rationale: No runner has to give up his base, even if he's forced to. Which brought another twist to the play, that if the throw hadn't beaten the batter-runner to 1B, the batter-runner is still out for arriving at a base occupied by a preceding runner. I swear that is what my UIC told me based upon his call to the national U-trip office.

Idiocy.

Keep in mind it was a slow-pitch game, not fast pitch, and the ruling is not a written interp.

Yikes! So, the BR would be well advised to carry his bat so as to better "force" the runner off the bag? Holy smokes!

:eek::confused::eek::confused::eek::confused::eek:

That's just plain horsepoopery!

So how does the defense ever turn a double play?

Idiocy doesn't even describe it in my mind. I had a profanity filled description ready, but game time called. :D

You're right, it was slow-pitch, and it wasn't a written interp, but still a verbal interp from the national umpire staff at U-trip carries the same weight as a written interp.

Of course, in U-trip, arriving at first base with the bat in hand would be an automatic out, so either way the batter-runner is screwed! :D

They can only turn a double play (or even in this sitch, a possible triple play) if the offense doesn't know this rule. Now my guess is, that someone will open his mouth in our city, and we're going to have chaos that makes the Rapture look like a bad sneeze.

By the way, Colonel Potter says "horse hockey!" :D

Absolutely ridiculous.

Ah yes... I can hear him barking it now. :D

So even the UIC of utrip is completely clueless.

Thats pretty sad.

This play is a no brainer.

No, apparently the rulebook (which I don't have with me here at work) backs him up. I didn't have a chance to look it up yet. Hopefully I'll have a chance tonight since I don't have games.

Here's the definition of a "force out" from the USSSA rule book:

FORCE OUT refers to when a Runner is tagged by a Fielder with the ball (while on or off a Base) or a Fielder holds the ball on the Base to which a Runner is forced to advance before the Runner can reach that Base and before any succeeding Runner is put out.

Here is their actual rule:

Base Runners Are Out Under The Following Circumstances: (8-5-N) When, on a force out, a Fielder tags him with the ball (while on or off a base) or holds the ball on the base to which the Base Runner is forced to advance before the Base Runner can reach the base.

I don't see how you could interpret this any differently than every single other baseball of softball organization does.

Link to USSSA on-line rule book: USSSA Slow Pitch Rule Book

Maybe when they called the "home office" the janitor answered the phone...

That's the only thing I can figure out. There is no way the national UIC passed down a ruling that exempted the rules.

And suddenly, I feel even better about making the switch from U-Trip back to ASA. :D

Thanks for posting. I went through the rule book several times last night, and this was the only thing I could find and it doesn't even support the interpretation. The UIC said he was reading something in the book during the phone call that was referenced by the National office, and I can't even find what the heck would even come remotely close. I'm still puzzled at what it was. I'll have to call my UIC tonight, with the references you posted (and I've got the page numbers, etc, now). Just downright puzzling. :confused:

hrmmm...heard somewhere that they could carry the bat around the bases.. as long as they didn't use it to interfere in the play.
Dont know it to be fact and I dont do slo-pitch.
Is this true or was it EVER actually allowed?

I wonder if it were actually allowed. As long as I've done U-trip ball, I've always known the rule to be an out if they arrived at 1B with the bat in hand. Nothing forbids them from carrying it up the baseline, just they have to drop it before they touch the bag. I know NSA (when a certain city around here was using their rules) didn't prohibit carry the bat beyond 1B, but that was 10 years ago, so I'm not so sure about them anymore.

USSSA Rule 7-4-G:

That's been the rule the whole time I've worked Utrip, which is running about 10 years now. I know there were some serious quirks back in the days I played some Utrip (and that was about 15 years ago or so), but I don't remember the running the bases with the bat. Of course, if I'd known that was permissible when I was playing, I would have been banned for life because I would have used it for ulterior motives. :D

It is a USSSA rule. To the best of my knowledge, no other organization uses the rule.

See Dave's post. He posted the USSSA rule that forbids carrying the bat to first base, or beyond.

Yes, I know, but I was responding to CNB comments and question as his belief is factual for other rule sets.

And something tells me that's why U-Trip prohibits that act. ;)

Not sure if it still is the rule, but I used to work ISA and the rule was similar... You could not be carrying the bat when you touched 1st base.

actually i was asking only in regards to usssa slow pitch (its 8-4-g BTW and its only regarding a live ball play... not lets say, a homerun.).... but now that you mention it.... has anyone ever had a BR carry their bat around the bags during a fast pitch game? I know i havent (yet) and if i did i would rule thats its nothing if asked by the opposing coach.