Kill it or let it play out?
 

NFHS.

Fifth inning of a 1-1 game. Bases loaded. Wild pitch. R1 scores, F2 throws wildly to F1 covering. R2 scores and R3 moves to 3B. F2 receives the ball near the plate and starts walking toward the circle. R3 moves down the line toward home. F2 stops and moves toward her. R3 retreats. For whatever reason, F2 still does not throw the ball to the pitcher in the circle, but walks toward the circle. R3 dances off third again, feinting towards home. F2 moves toward R3. Now both players are jawing at each other.

R3 retreats to 3B, F2 chases her. R3 is standing on 3B when F2 gets there and applies a hard two-handed tag. R3 shoves back and both players attempt to take a swing at each other while cooler heads separate the combatants.

Of course, both are ejected. Florida HSAA mandate up to six weeks for gross unsportsmanlike conduct. It appears that both players (both are seniors) are finished playing softball in HS.

Question: Would you kill this play when the two players start yelling at each other, or would you let it play out?

I don't know, Larry. Everytime I talk about killing the ball in a FP game, I get beat up even though those folks still have no idea why the ball needs to remain live. :rolleyes:

My $.02?

Let it play out. If the ball's live, the ball's live. Let the coaches mop up the mess, as it's not ours to mop up.

Since R3 was on the bag, and it sounds like there were no other runners, I would have killed the play right when the shoving started.

Another pet peeve!!!

I have to believe this is a direct result of the BS some of these kids are taught in this game.

THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER!

Every damn play with runners on third base, these kids run a rotation as if they MAY get an out one time out of every thousand attempts.

THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER!!

Every damn pitch the catcher jumps up and cocks the arm like there is some serious threat.

THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER!!!!

And they charge the runner EVEN IF THEY ARE STEPPING BACK ON THE BASE as if they are going to get a free out.

THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER!!!!!!!!

I have no idea how anyone can call themself a coach if they permit (and some actually encourage) this inane act that has more chance of turning into a disaster than getting an out.

THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course, you have these parents and coaches that believe this is a very important and strategic element of the game and THEIR DAUGHTER gets that runner out almost every time. And, yes, we are supposed to be that stupid to believe it.

Is there any umpire who doesn't know that the best and safest play after a pitch with a runner on third is to THROW THE BALL BACK TO THE PITCHER?

Do you know what my daughter would do if she was catching with a runner on third?:eek:




She'd nail that ***** at third for an out ;)

I like it. I'd probably wait until the pushing and shoving started before calling time. Then I'd stand back, write down numbers, and let the coaches deal with it.

(Who knows--if we have a bench-clearing brawl we can toss enough people that we can go home early! ;) )

In Federation, "Now both players are jawing at each other."

What does that have to do with good sportsmanship? I'm killing it and issuing warnings for unsporting behavior. That is what I am doing. I don't have 2 cents so does anyone have change for a dollar?:)

I'll side with Ronald on this one. If I'm close enough and can hear what's going on, and there's a likelihood of something bad happening, I'm going to try and head it off. Fortunately, I haven't seen many instances where things got that heated and for that I'm thankful.

It's unfortunate that because of these actions, both players may be done for the season. Maybe they deserved it; maybe they had history back to 10U days, I don't know. But maybe it could have been defused.

Ted

You can certainly try and head it off at the pass, but just don't get caught in the crossfire.

The Federation is pretty clear about this kind of thing, and it could very well have been handled earlier in the confrontation.

NFHS Rule 3-6 (Bench and Field Conduct)The taunting / baiting rule may have been applied as soon as the "play" ended and the trash talking began. This could have (maybe) stopped things short of the fight.

I think we're armchair quarterbacking this one a bit too much. Let's face it, fights on the field happen with little to no warning, often with an onset of a couple of seconds. Maybe I'm a cynic, but in terms of evolution, some people are barely one notch above that of a pack of wolves. One misperceived look or gesture, and it's on like Donkey Kong.

You can try and head it off by jumping in quickly, but sometimes it happens too d@mn fast for us to say or do anything to stop it.

At that point, stay out of the crossfire, don't even THINK about trying to break it up (are you REALLY going to grab a young girl?), and mop up the mess.

Irish:

I agree with you. The instant F2 and R3 started jawing at each other, kill the ball because they are not playing softball anymore. Then take appropriate action that is required by the umpires for such actions by the players.

MTD, Sr.

agree with that ........

I started thinking the ump had no rule basis for calling time, but then realized the jawing was probably baiting/taunting. Thanks to Tom for quoting Art. 13, before I had time to look it up.

It comes down to this:

Dead ball or not, the likelihood of a confrontation was high. Jawing or not, other than something similar to "That's enough, let's play ball" there is little else an umpire may or should do.

This issue is something the coaches should resolve, and quickly. If you have a coach that does anything, but attempt to stop it, s/he should be walking to the bus with the player.

And before anyone suggests that it would probably be safer to keep them in the dugout so that there is no confrontation away from the field, that isn't the umpire's job, responsibility or business. That is one of the reasons there should be a school administrator on site.

I know Mark does Basketball and that is my mindset on this play and, in a bb game this year when I saw one player jawing at another in a basketball game, a split second later, air went into the whistle and a T. That was my thinking when I answered and then went upstairs to the rule book. Thanks to Tom for posting the rule cause I was not going to type it.:D

Tom, do you have the rules on a disk or something different?

If fight starts, I am staying away but I will take quick action on jawing. I guess sportsmanship is my pet peeve. Detest unsporting behavior.

Thanks, Ron

When we register with the Minnesota State High School League, one of the benefits we get is membership in the NFHS Officials Association, and one of the benefits of that is access to an online .pdf copy of the rule book (which I also have saved to my hard drive). Not every state includes membership in the NFHS Officials Association, and I appreciate that the MSHSL does so. You can join as an individual; there is a fee, but I don't know what it is.

I agree with an earlier comment that we are armchair quarterbacking this, but the OP did ask. NFHS gives much clearer guidelines on acceptable behavior than does ASA, so since this was an NFHS game, I disagree that there is "little else an umpire may or should do..." As soon as the umpire recognizes that the game has stopped being played and taunting / baiting has begun, kill the ball and eject or warn (depending on your judgment). If the players continue into fight mode, they deserve to lose the rest of their senior season.

I agree the umpire should not do anything physical to keep the players apart... that job falls to the coaches.

Boy, talking about taking something out of context......

How? I didn't mean to... Your statement seemed pretty clear.

Yes, it was. Other than remind them why we are there, what else are you going to do to stop it? Run up and wedge yourself between them? Grab one and hold her back? Are you going to issue a preemptive ejection? It takes two to tango and I'm not looking for an ejection, but I'm not in a ring waiting for the bell to ring, either. I'm going to give them the opportunity to back off and then I will worry about further action.

Good umpiring is preventive umpiring.You as an official have an obligation to enforce the rules but also to monitor players conduct towards one another.I find it better to head off a potential "situation"with a quick word rather then observing a fight and making a list of ejections.Also by your inactions as that game's official you might open up your organization or even yourself up to a potential lawsuit if some player is injured as a result of your inaction.

Bull ****! You want to open yourself up to a lawsuit, go ahead and touch one of the girls or coaches. Then there is the offensive touching charges which if under 18 may have you registering in your community the rest of your life if you can find a place to live that will endure the label you will receive.

In ASA's SAG, physical and sexual abuse definition includes "unwanted physical contact" and ASA is one of these groups that are dumb enough to encourage a "zero tolerance" stance.

You TELL them to back off and they you perform your duties as an umpire and that is not the same as the Loco Parentis status a school team coach or administrator enjoy.

You kill it and tell them to chill out and you play ball. You dont need a listed reason to kill the ball. If you need to kill it, you kill it. Thats why they give you a really cool looking blue shirt. For judgment. If you dont think you have the proper judgment for when you kill a ball and not lose the integrity of the all precious live ball :rolleyes: .. hang it up. I dont need a rule or an article or a supplement to know this is a kill ball situation.


I'm killing it and a warning and telling them lets play ball - no one on this planet would ever question that in real life. Hopefully doing so would have prevented the ejections - but maybe not. For all you know this girl stole the other girls boyfriend. Who knows the REAL back story of that aside from the girls.. but the only place killing it in this situation would EVER get questioned is on officialforum.com.

You are not a spectator hoping for a cat fat (not that all those are bad ;), you are an umpire of a youth sport. But even in adult ball - I would kill it. This stuff can get out of hand quick.

As happened here.

Sounds like action still taking place. I'm not killing it if a play is going on, even if it's one of these "silly" jumping around, faking like I'm going to run plays.

[QUOTE=wadeintothem;596533]You kill it and tell them to chill out and you play ball. You dont need a listed reason to kill the ball. If you need to kill it, you kill it. Thats why they give you a really cool looking blue shirt. For judgment. If you dont think you have the proper judgment for when you kill a ball and not lose the integrity of the all precious live ball :rolleyes: .. hang it up. I dont need a rule or an article or a supplement to know this is a kill ball situation.


I'm killing it and a warning and telling them lets play ball - no one on this planet would ever question that in real life. Hopefully doing so would have prevented the ejections - but maybe not. For all you know this girl stole the other girls boyfriend. Who knows the REAL back story of that aside from the girls.. but the only place killing it in this situation would EVER get questioned is on officialforum.com.

You are not a spectator hoping for a cat fat (not that all those are bad ;), you are an umpire of a youth sport. But even in adult ball - I would kill it. This stuff can get out of hand quick. As happened here.

Well put Wade....you nailed it. I don't have all the rule sets in front of me...but don't they all under their rule chapter titled Umpires contain language that reads something like.....[B][I]each umpire has the authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.?
I'm killing it.