Did I get this FLEX situation right?
 

Team playing DP/Flex. DP is batting in 6th batting position. For some reason unknown, the Flex bats thinking she is the 10th batter. The 9 hole batter bats and creates the 2nd out. The Flex then bats and grounds out for 3rd out. Defense approaches before all left field and points out that Flex batted.

Here's what I did: Flex became an Illegal Substitute for the 1 hole batter by batting improperly. The 1 hole batter has now left the game and is re-entered by coach. The Flex is DQ'd for the game. The 3rd out stands. The correct batter when this team comes back to bat is the 2 hole batter.

Did I get everything covered?

I don't think this is the way I'd have called this but yours seems reasonable.

The flex cannot legally enter for the 1st batter, but could have legally entered for the 6th batter. I'd call this an unreported legal substitution out of order. I know there's a priority statement in the book, but not having it in reach I can't remember which way it goes. The DP has left the game, and the BOO is appealed so the 2 batter is correctly due up.
Besides changing which coach I'm going to be giving an explanation too, what else says that's not the way to do it.
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NastyGirls19

Dh,

I think you did a very creditable job there. I don't think it's a batting out of order, because the Flex was not entitled to bat except as a replacement for the DP. When she batted for anyone other than the DP it was an illegal substitution.

I'd say the person in the Flex position should be DQ'd [not the position, but maybe that's just how I'm reading it]. There would need to be a sub for the Flex, or the DP would play defense for the Flex.

I try to remember that Flex and DP can both be in the game on defense at the same time, but only one or the other can be on offense.

You might have had a situation with the DP and base and the Flex trying to knock her in.

Ted

I agree with youngump and I do not see an illegal substitution as being what should be called. The flex is legally in the game and my understanding of an illegal sub would be someone who has used up their eligibility or has been ejected and then enters the game.

You have an unreported sub and then BOO.

I meant the person playing the FLEX was DQ'd not the FLEX position. Didn't make that clear. The offending team had a sub and put her in for the original FLEX and we kept playing with 10.

Flex is an Illegal Batter (4.7.F.2), is DQd and replaced with a legal sub, in this case the lead-off batter is reentered. The Unreported Sub rules (4.6.A-C1-C9) cover the remainder of the play.

Obviously, the IP cannot be considered legally in the game, but is declared out. Any runners returned to the base occupied at the TOP and all outs stand. (4.6.C.3)

Since this is covered by rule, I don't believe you can have a BOO here especially since the 3rd out of the inning has already occured. I would have the #1 batter as the lead-off for the next inning.

A sub for the Flex would also be necessary, in addition to the lead-off batter being re-entered. No sub, shorthanded. First batter next inning B2. The only thing I think you missed was sub for DQ'd flex.

If this is NFHS you got it exactly right!

This is covered by Rule 3-3-6-g

Casebook play 3.3.6 Situation F covers this.

The correct batter to start the next inning would be B2. You would need a sub for the DQed player (either an eligible sub or the DP) and as you stated the coach has to use B1's re-entry to get her back in the game (or use another legal sub with B1 remaining out of the game).

I consider myself an intelligent educated man and after reading this thread so far, my head us hurting so bad that I am ready to take two Tylenol (suppose a little trademark circle is supposed to be placed right about here) and go back to bed. I have had two H.S. baseball games already this Spring with my first H.S. fastpitch softball game coming up on Saturday, and I fear the DP/Flex so much after reading this thread I am going to have bad dreams all week now. If only fastpitch softball would go back to the DH. LOL

MTD, Sr.

Ed,

Sub for the Flex is not required. Could have one, but not required as the team line-up can legally drop to nine with the DP playing defense.

Tell me why B2. B1 did not miss their turn at bat if there was no BOO. The Flex, as an Illegal Player was retired by rule 4.6.C.3.Effect. Nowhere in Rule 4 or RS #15 does it state the Flex becoming an Illegal Batter would consitute batting out of order.

I know this has been a standard reaction by umpires (to go for a BOO), but I don't think it necessarily applies.

I (FWIW) think B2 because there was no BOO. Flex batted "for" B1, because there is no "B10." Aren't we doing a re-entry for B1?

If a pitch had been thrown, then 4.6.C.4 applies and we now have a runner on base; he's not the runner for B9, there is no B10, so he must be the runner for B1. B2 up. The only difference I see here is that the B1 slot is retired.

Good scenario. I think I would have done the same as you before this thread.

I think you did correct by NFHS (3-3-6) but ASA has no provision for the correct batter losing their turn at bat over this issue. NFHS has that specific provision.

So NFHS correct batter is #2.
ASA correct batter is #1.
Umpire: headache.

Good job though. Tough call on complicated issue. We are learning all the time!

I'm not seeing this as a BOO, just an illegal (and unreported) substitution. The FLEX player batted illegally, as a sub for B1 and made an out. Would not matter if that player batted in any other spot that is not the DP, still an out. I don't see the B1/Bx spot getting another at bat after the out.

Key item to keep in mind: by rule, if the FLEX bats in any position in the order other than for the DP, it is an illegal player (ASA) or illegal subsitute (NFHS). By rule. No option to make it a BOO.

I had this occur in my 7th game of the day at about 10 PM!! Talk about a bad time for this to happen! I appreciate all the input, it was a confusing situation. It was an ASA game, but I do HS ball (in fall here) as well so I appreciate the HS rule being discussed as well. I just got my ASA book so I'm off to read it in my spare time today to see what I can figure out. Sounds like the only confusion is over if #1 or #2 should bat lead-off the next inning.

Personally, I don't think that any umpire should be having a seventh game of the day on any day!

MTD, you are still too much of a little ball guy. The DP/FLEX can be extremely entertaining if the coach has a deep bench and understands how to use the rule (and you understand it). :cool:

Call me a traditionalist if you like, but the DH is one of the worst innovations in baseball. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the DP/DEFO/FLEX, whatever either.

I'm a firm believer in playing 100% of the game or find another game.

We discussed this a couple years ago in a more general form regarding how the Flex is handled when they enter the BO without notification, the link is below:


http://forum.officiating.com/softbal...r-appeals.html

Putting the DP on defense for the Flex is a substitution and is required to be reported or you would have an unreported substitute (the FLEX has left the game). In the case discussed here a legal sub can later enter the game in the FLEX's spot in the lineup allowing the team to return to a ten player lineup. That's why I said in my other post either an eligible sub or the DP.

The Illegal Substitute Rule 3-4 Penalty states in part "The proper batter is considered to have lost her turn at bat."

NFHS casebook 3.4.2 Situation A covers this.

The above is based on NFHS softball rules.

Speaking ASA,

Case Play 4.6-5 may offer some guidance as to who comes to bat (B1 or B2). It would imply that B2 would...

...but I may be wrong.

It was 2 games on and one game off rotation so wasn't too bad.

Sure, cite a case play on a day I don't have my disc :mad:

And after reading his post, I went online and ordered one!

Moving the DP on defense simply means the FLEX has left the game, but does not meet the definition of a "substitute" to which is what I was referring.

Thank you, but as you can see, I am referring strictly to ASA.

Check your PM...

Here ya go...

Is there any significance to ASA calling the FLEX in this situation an "illegal player" instead of an "illegal substitute"?

Good question. Are you asking, or leading/baiting me? :)

Asking... ;)

Well, ASA doesn't have a definition for an "illegal substitute". Other than that....

Case play is for unreported sub, not an illegal batter. Remember an illegal batter is declared out in 4.6.F. Then all other provisions of of 4.6.A-C are applied.

An unreported sub is a player who has a right to be doing what they did, just was not reported. An Illegal Batter is a player which had no right being anywhere near that batter's box.

I disagree, somewhat. 4.6.F states that the I.P/I.B is DQ'd, not that they are out. 4.6.C[1-9] gets you the out (assuming they weren't put out already as in the OP.) However, the out has to be recorded and applied to someone in the batting order, doesn't it? Shouldn't it be applied to B1, then B2 comes to bat? How can you have an out apply to someone not in the batting order (the DQ'd FLEX)?

Slightly different scenario: If an unreported sub comes to bat for B1, gets put out at 1B, the next batter is B2. Why shouldn't it apply the same way if the FLEX bats for B1?

I'm confused enough now to neither agree or disagree. But why would you have to apply the out to someone in the batting order? In the weird BOO codes that allow you to get multiple outs for the violation, you must book one of those outs outside the order. So why not here?
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Vaporizer Reviews

I would say so; this application doesn't meet the definition of a "substitute".

A substitute is a player not listed in the starting line-up, or a player that left the game and re-enters. In this case, this was the starting FLEX, and, so long as she played defense, never left the game.

You are correct. Reading too many damn things at one time.

Maybe, maybe not. The definition of Batting Order only addresses those who are scheduled to bat. The FLEX is placed in the tenth position of the line-up according to 4.3.B, but in the batting order in RS #15.

Good question, but not the strangest thing I've ever seen :rolleyes:

Don't know. Was B1 out for the play, or because it was brought to the umpire's attention B1 was an U.S.?

PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying any of us are right or wrong, just pointing out the question raised that really isn't addressed what I would consider clear. Probably wouldn't even had raised it if Ed didn't mention it.

You might re-read BOO again... you're not correct here.

DH...great job handling it the way you did. Glad it wasn't me...and yes I now have the same headache Mark Di has.

I think I'm going to see Western Deputy MB and Region 15 UIC WBS tonight. If so, I'll run this by them.

Well, it looks like you ran it by them and it made the rules and clarifications for July 2009, which I am sure everyone has read by now.

For the non-ASA world, in the hope that all sanctions will agree:

"Ruling: When the FLEX batted in the 1st position in the batting order, (the DP is batting in the 7th position), they batted “for someone other than the original DP”. This makes the FLEX an ILLEGAL BATTER according to Rule 4, Section 6F[2]. The Flex is then disqualified and the offending team must put a substitute in for the FLEX or simply activate the DP on defense for the FLEX and drop down to 9 players on the Line-up card.

Rule 4, Section 6F[2] ILLEGAL BATTER (Fast Pitch). Placing the “FLEX” player in one of the first nine positions in the batting order for someone other than the original DP. EFFECT: Section F[2-4] The illegal Player is disqualified and replaced with a legal substitute. All other provisions of Rule 4, Section 6 A-C [1-9]apply."

Pretty much what we said.