Scoring question
 

2 outs and a runner on third. Pitcher throws a strike 3 looking pitch, the catcher cannot hold onto the ball and the runner scores from 3rd. Runner advances to 1st.

How is that scored as an earned or unearned run?

According to the explanation I got the dropped strike 3 should have been the end of the inning and an error charged to E2. It cannot be considered a wild pitch or passed ball due to the pitch being a strike 3 looking. The run should be considered unearned as well as any run after that because the inning should have been over.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sc...smiley-015.gif

;)

? whats your post suppose to mean? I ask a serious question and I get this????????

It means...


Although there are a few umpires who give a flying crap about score keeping.. most do not.

You would do better and be sure of the advice you are getting from a scorekeeping site or a fan site.

Your question is for mommy's in straw hats, not umpires. The run scored robbing us of an well earned easy out. We can just hope it did not tie the game.

Guys, guys... C'mon, let's not be rude here...

What ruleset are you asking about?

LOL

"what ruleset"

Thats a good one.

Guess I'm a little tired from last night's games. Man, I'm out of shape. Can't concentrate this morning...

Someone at least throw an answer out there...

Yeah, that's it. ;)

Only because you asked.

You need to understand this is an umpire board. As umpires, we really don't care how anything is scored.

You may get an answer from someone who dips into that side of the pool, but, in general, many umpires just don't care.

You may want to ask your question on a site/board that is more team-oriented.

That explanation sucks. The inability of a catcher to catch a pitched ball is not an error; ever. It is either a wild pitch or a passed ball, those categories exist for the sole purpose of describing when a catcher doesn't catch a pitch and runners advance as a result.

If the ball should have been caught, it is a passed ball, and the run scored is unearned. If the pitch was one that missed the target, or bounced, so that it isn't really the catcher's fault, it is a wild pitch and an earned run.

Answered only to close the thread, not because it belongs in an officials' site.

And you were doing so well, and then BAM!!!!

I would think this is how every set of scoring rules does it. I know Steve is right for OBR. (Yes, I've read OBR Rule 10. I often keep score when I go to watch games. There, I said it.)

That said, Wade's answer is my favorite. :D

First of all I am on official, I spend my time on the BB thread b/c that is the sport I officiate. I came on here b/c my DD is the pitcher and I needed an explanation, not a bunch of smart *** LL umpire cute remarks.
If this part of the forum has turned into a self gratification dear abby column, then maybe I should be going to the straw hat mommy.

The question was posed as a serious question b/c it affects her ERA and she is wanting to go to college and pitch. There is a dispute in the ruling and I needed information from the experts. So unlike the Basketball thread I see that this SB thread is for basically rec league and LL umpires that think a smart *** answer is gonna make their buddies snicker.

I am on official too. :rolleyes:
ROFL... this board cracks me up.

Relax, archer... I think you just touched a button with a number of the umpires here by asking a question that clearly sounded like a parent asking for a clarification that impacted their DD.

You see, we get these questions all the time, and we hate getting dragged into a fight that's not ours. It's kind of like the mechanic (or, in my case, computer tech) who always gets asked "what's wrong with this?" In the end, we get dragged into it, and it kind of gets old.

So take my apology for what it's worth, and take all of this with a grain of salt.

We're not a bad bunch, really! :)

I edited my post for obvious reasons... It was way too mean and uncalled for.

peace

Which, as you can see, it clearly was.

Here's the message (from me, anyway): I'm not a scorekeeper. Keeping score is not the umpire's responsibility. Neither is mediating a dispute between Dad and the official / team / other pitcher's mommy scorekeeper. I don't care about scorekeeping. This is not a general softball forum, it is an umpire's forum.

Now, to the OP: go cook your DD's books elsewhere. Nice try with the LL attempt at an insult, but you completely missed the mark. That sort of "you're not a big dog" insult may work on the BB board, populated as it is with a bunch of ML Umpire wannabees and pretenders. But, "level" has nothing to do with it. Keeping score is not the umpire's job, whatever the level.

Maybe keeping score is the umpire's responsibility at the level this clown works - he IS "on" official you know.

I've played, coached, been a league official several times, and now umpire. I've kept score, like some others have mentioned, both for my own games and for my son's Babe Ruth team when he was playing. I know how some people are about their kid's stats.

As the scorer in one of my son's games, a batter for our team came to bat with 2 outs and the bases loaded. He popped a routine fly ball to RF that the fielder dropped. My scoring: E9 3 base error; his dad's scoring: game winning 3 RBI triple.

SRW had it right for your scoring purposes. Some other examples:

BB followed by 3 WPs equals an earned run.
W/ 2 outs, batter reaches on E3. Next batter home run. Two unearned runs.
W/ 2 outs, batter reaches on E3. Pitching change. Next batter home run. One unearned run for previous pitcher, one earned run for new pitcher, two unearned runs for purposes of team ERA.
Batter triples, passed ball, runner scores. Batter doubles. No RBI, earned run charged.
Batter triples w/ no outs. Next two batters strike out. Next batter reaches on a D3K. Because batter reached, there must be a passed ball charged to the catcher or a wild pitch charged to the pitcher. This is official scorer's judgement. If a WP, run is earned; if a PB, run is unearned. [This assumes next batter is retired.]
Batter triples w/ two outs. Illegal pitch called. Run scores. Earned run.
W/ two outs, batter reaches on catcher obstruction [this is also an error charged to the catcher]. Next batter home run. Two unearned runs.
W/ two outs, batter fouls to F3 who drops the ball for an error. Batter subsequently gets a base hit. Next 3 batters walk. Next batter doubles in 3 runs but is thrown out stretching for 3B. Four unearned runs.
W/ one out, batter triples. Next batter walks. Runner from 1B attempts to steal 2B and catcher throws ball into center field for an error. Runner from 3B scores, runner from first holds at second base. Next 2 batters strike out. One unearned run.
W/ one out, batter triples. Next batter walks. Runner from 1B attempts to steal 2B and catcher throws ball into center field for an error. Runner from 3B scores, runner from first holds at second base. Next batter strikes out. Next batter singles, w/ runner from 2B scoring. Next batter strikes out. Two earned runs.
W/ two outs, batter doubles. Next batter singles to LF who throws home to try to retire the R from second base. Throw hits the R in the back and she scores. BR goes to second base on the error. Next batter strikes out. One unearned run.

Hope that helps.

Ted

What the heck is a strike 3 looking pitch :confused:

Either it was a strike or it wasn't! I can only assume that it was maybe a called 3rd strike?

It's "Dear Umpie" not "Dear Abby"
You got your answer so be happy and let her know the run was unearned. She should be happy too

You little ball guys are tho thenthitive.

Softball Scoring

The link above will download/open a pdf that pretty much covers all you'll need to know about scoring in softball.

Reading that particular post you reference, it sounds like a called 3rd strike at which the batter was gawking rather than swinging. Ya know, the ones the baseball guys make a show of calling where we softball guys only hammer and maybe call it a little louder than the other strikes. :cool:

But, but,but..... its a uncaught 3rd strike.... even baseball guys know not to pull the bow (or whatever) on that? don't they? :rolleyes: :D

Some of the arbitrary and illogical scoring rules cited in Tru_in_Blu's post remind me of why I lost interest in scoring at about age 12.

You can make a great play and be charged with an error, and you can make a horrible play and not be charged. You can come in in relief and get shelled and end up with a win, and you can pitch well and be charged with a loss.

I liked the (unofficial) scoring rules when I played slow pitch. If you hit the ball and reached base, you were credited with a hit. If the outfielder kicked the ball and you made it so 2B, you were credited with a double. (That ball took a bad hop, didn't it?) Even the Trenton Statesmen (the pro team) followed those guidelines.

Years ago I saw the following very common play in a MLB game on TV. Runner on 2B. Batter lines a hit to RF. Runner tries to score, and F9 throws toward home, but way over the cutoff man. The BR, seeing the high throw, keeps running and reaches 2B safely as the run scores. The great scoring expert Joe Morgan explained that the batter is credited with a double because, after rounding 1B, he didn't slow down but continued directly to 2B.

Hi greymule,

I'll agree that scoring a particular play can certainly be arbitrary. I'm not sure I agree with the illogical assessment, though. Just as there are judgments that an umpire makes, there are judgments that scorers make. At the kid's rec level, or men's wreck level, allowances differ. When my son played as a 10 year old: someone blooped a ball to the outfield, and the outfielder overran it, then picked it up and tried to throw it anywhere, and someone else tracked it down and threw it somewhere, and finally the play was over because the batter had hit a "home run".

And in men's wreck, when F4 drops a popup, and the batter's standing on 1B grinning and begging for a basehit - "Didn't you see that tough hop it took?"

Not sure if your comment about the great scoring expert Joe Morgan was tongue in cheek or not. Given what you described, I have the batter w/ a run-scoring single [assuming the runner scored] and advancing to 2B on the throw.

But the "mommy's in straw hats" in general probably aren't so sophisticated or well versed in applying some of these judgments. Some will score a routine grounder that was muffed as a base hit; some will score a diving attempt my a fielder who got a glove on the ball, but didn't catch it, as an error. Maybe it depends upon which side of the field they're sitting on while scoring.

I've had parents ask me if a play was a hit/error, WP/PB, etc. I tell them that I can only rule on if a run counts at the end of a half inning and can't help them with their stats. It's mostly in good fun although I'm sure there are some parents who are just over the top with their kids' stats.

When Tony Conigliaro played in HS at St. Mary's in Lynn, MA, some believed that his stats were "cooked" to make him more attractive to potential colleges or major league scouts. As the home team books are considered official, perhaps he got the benefit of homer scoring. But there were also some rumors that if a batter got a hit in an inning and Tony C. didn't, the hit might just find it way onto Tony's linescore. Don't know if any of that is remotely true or not or just someone's sour grapes.

And of course in MLB the stats are the be all, end all. I agree that it's a bit strange to have a closer blow a save and through no offense on his part [mostly, unless he's batting in the NL] his team pushes across a run and he is credited with a win. That is neither arbitrary or illogical based on how the rules are written. I can see how it might be unfair to the starter who pitched 8 shutout innings and left with a 1-0 lead only to see the closer give up a dinger to tie the game. Such is life...

Ted

Guys - I believe Archer's BB is referring to basketball, not baseball.

That being said, Mr. Archer - don't give me your sanctimonious high regard of the basketball forum, I've spent some time in there myself.

Try posting this question on the basketball forum;

"A player on the other team in my Men's rec league last night rebounded his own airball shot and the ref didn't call a travel. What the h*ll is wrong with these refs, anyway?"

and see how many smart-a** answers come back.

Hopefully, if they're not crouched over, praying their cup blocked the ball! :eek:

Huh? I haven't said anything in this thread until now...? :confused:

yeah..but you wanted to. :D

Please tell me you don't this from ........ GULP ......... experience! :D

E-Ump

My apologies. Hopping around from thread to thread and obviously confused you with someone else. Suffice to know that I always appreciate your inputs as insightful, relevant, and competent.

Ted

There you go. The best way to be right is to not be wrong and you cannot be wrong if you don't say anything! :D

To all you guys that attempted to give me an logical explanation in how that would be scored, I thank you..........

Now for you others that glorify your youth league officiating days........ I just remembered why I don't post here much anymore. Its because this site has been over run with youth and rec league officials that are not capable of working at a professional level.

You all sit and ***** about the fans yelling at you with stupid comments and yet you come on here and spew your ignorant remarks that sound so similar to howler monkeys.

As for the one that opened his pie hole about me cooking the books for my kid? That's about what I would expect from some ignorant LL umpire. You are probably so fat that your chest protector comes up past your navel.

Next time someone comes on here asking a question....... Before you morons that cant make the cut at making this a profession decide to respond. Maybe you should wipe the man gravy off your shirt. You are an embarrassment to officiating.

Oooooooohhhhhhhh! You sure do talk a good insult. Too bad you can't read to go with it.

archer, let's say you decide to build your own house one day. You hire the contractors, you buy the land, and the house is being built.

During the process, an inspector comes out and says, "your plumbing is not up to code, and it must be fixed."

Do you ask the inspector what steps you should have the contractors take to fix it? No. Why not?

Because every person in this world has an area of expertise. Everyone in this world has his/her own role, his/her own part to play. HOW to build a house is not the inspector's role. Never has been, never will be.

In softball and baseball, it is not the umpire's role to determine how a run is scored in the books. By trade, that's not our area of expertise because it doesn't need to be.

We have a million things to worry about with respect to the rules of softball, as evidenced by the hundreds and hundreds of different threads in this forum alone. We don't care how a run scored (earned vs. unearned, etc.), because that is not part of our judgment. It's not a part of our duties. All we care about is whether or not the run DID score. Do you see football referees call out to the scorekeepers, "that was a 'hurry' on the quarterback?" Of course not.

So basically, you came to the wrong place, and you caught a bit of flack for it. Perhaps some of it was unnecessary, but hey... You were given suggestions on the appropriate place to take your questions, and you threw it right back at us.

And the pot was calling the kettle black.

I'll make you a similar offer to you which I did to Carl Childress on the e-mail list which preceded this site.

Show up in OKC during the World Cup and talk to the ladies playing in that tournament. While you are there, talk to the guys playing in the Battle of the Border slow pitch tournament being played at the same time. You will know who they are as they will stand out as quite a few of them will hover over you and be built quite well.

I will take any one of those men and women in athleticism, sport skill, dedication and professionalism against any two of your players any day. And, yes, some of us have worked games in which these players have participated as an individual or a team.

BTW, I'll take any of the umpires, also, against any of yours including MLB.

Of course, Carl failed to take me up on the offer, so I guess we should expect to see you there. Of maybe not.

Not sure if your comment about the great scoring expert Joe Morgan was tongue in cheek or not. Given what you described, I have the batter w/ a run-scoring single [assuming the runner scored] and advancing to 2B on the throw.

That's what everybody in the park and in the viewing audience had, too, except Joe.

I was originally going to answer your post, then I saw your true colors. Don't you have an anatomically impossible act to perform? Take your sanctimonious butt back over to that other forum -- been there, seen your posts, your crap stinks there, too. We don't want your crap, don't need your crap. If you don't know the difference between a WP and a PB, then your question could NOT have been serious. Your references to LL umpires tells me one thing: you keep getting turned down short of Williamsport. Keep working on your 1-2-3-4-heads down-click on your clicker, and you will get there.

That wasn't me, nor would I imply nefarious actions by any. However, I do find it odd that you believe that college recruiters/scouts put so much faith in the HS game scoring usually done by volunteers, often untrained. (Having never been involved on that side of the game, I would not know.)

I also find it odd that this thread seems to have gone so far awry because you seem to have been hypersensitive to the fact that the only answer you got to your original post in the first 24 minutes was a yawn.

I do appreciate that you were able to use "pie hole", "cooking the books" and a gravy reference all in one of your post. It's kind of put me in the mood for a Denny's Grand Slam on this fine Saturday morning.

I wonder if the ruling (and subsequent explaination) would have changed if the offensive coach somehow noticed that the F2 was wearing a belly button ring and shouted to the plate umpire, demanding that he ask his partner for "another angle"?

Actually, that would have at least made this post at least somewhat interesting.

Don't listen to Joe. Period. Problem solved.

While we are on the topic of scoring, I was at a bar last night, and this hot blonde walks in...... :D

He wasn't THAT blonde...

took the words right off my fingertips!!!

D'oh!!!!! :rolleyes:

In honor of this thread I decided to pay attention to the score keepers this weekend..

Apparently the mommy's in straw hats and shorties have been replaced by the fat guy with a lap top.

It is a sad day indeed.

I'm seeing the pearshaped asst. coach in the first base coach's box with the palm pilot

It's all good. :)

Yup. ;)