Heard today from a coach
 

Working the plate today, runner coming in to score and beats the throw by 1/2 step (catcher was on the 1st base side of the plate). Im standing 5' from the play at the back edge of the right handed batters box and watch the runner plant her entire foot in the middle of the plate.

After play is over, here comes the DC. "Blue, Id like you to go to your partner for help. She missed the plate and I think your partner had a better angle on the play."

Have a nice walk back to the dugout coach.

Wow!
 

"Sure coach, I'll be happy to ask my partner, who was 70' away, if he/she had a better angle to see the runner touch the plate. I'm sure being 70' away is much better than 5' don't you agree coach?"

What an idiot for even asking!

No coach, I will not go to my partner. I saw the runner touch the plate.

And your question was what? coach. :rolleyes:

I had a coach ask me to go to my partner on a pulled foot at 1B. Not the OC, but the DC. He claimed his player never left the ground (he was a foot and a half in the air). :rolleyes:

Last summer I had a coach ask me to go to my partner and ask him if 'He had a different angle'. I went to my partner and asked that question. Of course I got a yes, and then called the runner our again.

After the game my partner asked me why I had to ask the question, from 40' further away and watching a play at the plate of course he ahd a different angle than me.

I was just trying to keep the coaches happy!:D

Why?

Exercise in futility. They're like my old boss: never happy. Screw 'em.

I think what you probably meant was either "to get them off my back" or "to keep the game moving." Both are quite acceptable, in my book. :D

My point is, though, in a situation like the OP, I would have just looked at the coach, told them I clearly saw the runner touch the plate, and I have no need to talk with anyone else about it.

Point well made and well taken. I'm 110% in agreement with you that this coach is just reaching to see what buttons s/he can push.

To all of the situations above, my response would be "Coach, I will always go for help if there is some part of a play I didn't see. No matter what angle my partner has, it can't make me 'unsee' what I saw. There is no added information needed on this play; a second opinion doesn't change my call."

I told him I was only 5' from the play and saw her foot land directly in the middle of the plate and that I was not going to go to my partner for help. Batter up, play ball.

Damn! You are smooth!

"Coach, I will always go for help if there is some part of a play I didn't see. No matter what angle my partner has, it can't make me 'unsee' what I saw. There is no added information needed on this play; a second opinion doesn't change my call."


Steve, are you saying that regardaless of the information you got from your partner, the call is not changing?

It is possible to see something that did not really happen, i.e. you see a tag but your partner and everybody else including the player who missed the tag did not see the tag.

If you go to your partner and he or she says, the defense missed the tag, are you going to stick with your call? (confused)
Thanks. Ron

There is no second opinion on a judgment call. There can be additional facts that the calling umpire was not aware of, but no second opinion on the judgment.

My reading of Steve's post is regarless of the facts he receives when he goes for help on "some part of a play [he] didn't see", he is sticking with his call.

Is that a correct reading of his paragraph?

We've had the same coach.;)

No. That is not a correct reading, at least the way I am reading it. He is saying that he will not go for help, since the only thing the coach has questioned is his judgement, rather than some element of the play (pulled foot, bobbled ball..etc.) that Steve might have missed. You should NEVER go for help when a coach asks when the only question he has involves your judgement.

Also, keep in mind that when you go to your partner for help, you still need to make the call. You add what your partner gives you to what you saw and decide from there.

In the OP, if I clearly see the runner step full on the plate from just 5 feet away, there's nothing that my partner can tell me that would make me decide that I must have seen it wrong. And there would be no point even asking my partner.

There are times when you should check with your partner. This isn't one of them.

About the only times you should check with your partner are on a bobbled ball, pulled foot, checked swing, swiped tag/dive back into the base where they might have had a better look because you may have been blocked or out of position, and when you don't know the correct application of a rule. I am sure there are a couple of other items that I might have missed, but that pretty much sums it up.

You forgot "keep the coach happy." http://forums.s2kca.com/images/smilies/bolt.gif

or shut the coach up:rolleyes:

Hey, just though of something.....what has the coach ever done to keep ME happy?

That's not his job. Didn't you know, the coaches are our customers and the customer is always right. :D

to skahtboi,

thanks. agreed.

Scott, thank you, restated my position exactly.

Once I have seen the play, and have no doubt about what I saw, I am not going for help to get another opinion about my judgement. Another opinion cannot overrule what I saw; asking for no reason only (potentially) sells out my partner (if what I saw can't be changed, by rule).

If I do go for help, it is because there MAY be some part of the play I did not or could not see. If I ask, I will accept my partner's observation as fact, and then rule accordingly.

I hope that's clear, Ronald.

lol

Hugo finally joins.

Welcome brother.

Thanks for pointing that out, Wade! :)

I saw Hugo's name on that post, read his response and didn't even think twice about it being his first post on this board. I guess that I'm so used to seeing his name on multiple other boards that it didn't even register...

Welcome aboard!

I normally wouldn't just ask. But this time (above) the coach asked me to see if my partner had a different angle. Not a question of my judgment, didn't imply I had missed anything. The coach was curious if my partner had a a different angle. Question was asked and answered. Out stayed and the game went on.

Who the heck cares what the hell that coach wants?

EIther you the umpire saw the play or you didnt.

If you screwed up or something is missing, talk to your partner.

If not, you saw and you called it.

End of story.

Dont even try to put this on your partner, its your call. Own it. That coach and his little wants and desires can go pound sand.

Easy Wade.
He never laid anything on his partner. He never asked his partner a thing about judgement on the play. He merely pointed out the coach asked a stupid question, and he shared it with his BU.

I think what wade's concerned about is the fact that anytime you go to your partner for help on something where help shouldn't be asked for, you lose credibility as an umpire. I agree 100% with this philosophy. Even appearing to go for help (when you really aren't) will lessen your credibility on a judgment call. Not may, but will. You've now shown the coach that you can get pushed closer towards calling it his/her way.

Still a funny story, though. I could imagine it going like this...

Coach: Could you ask your partner if he had a different angle?
Me: Sure! Hey, John, did you have a different angle on the play?
John: I sure did. About 38 degrees off the 1B line.

Okay I see that point. Not sure I agree 100%. Sometimes you read a situation and maybe the best way to handle it is to humor the coach's dumb request. If I think that will put a end to it. Otherwise, Yes, I agree with you and Wade. Forget it coach, lets play.

Look, I can understand the reason you did this. But, unless the coach has something that HE saw that you might have missed, and he can tell you what that is, by merely asking for a look from a different angle, he is asking for a second opinion on a judgment call.

You know, my mere presence should do that!!! :rolleyes:

IMO, you really cant. A good partner will tell you not to do that to him again. There is never a time you should meet just to humor a coach. There should be a reason you are meeting with your partner. A coach asking for "Angle" is BS - we know that except for a very very few things like pulled foot or if you are in C and a pick at 1B, we're not going for help. Other than that you should be 8-15 feet from the play and in a good spot.

Just because it was a banger and coach wants a second shot at a call is never a reason. From your perspective, just because the coach is pressuring you doesnt mean you must fold. Ownership of a call is very important. ESPECIALLY if you know you screwed it up. I'm not gonna relieve you of your heat. Thats on you.

FYI: My previous post was not directed at any one poster, including the OP. It was a general rant.

Wouldn't you know I had a play yesterday that reminded me of this thread and I was thinking some of these same thoughts as the coach is making her way out to me.

I was behind and left of ss, bunt caught by pitcher and throw back to 1b for time play. I had moved to just short of the base path b/w 2b and 3b. I rule safe and the coach starts asking PU for an "appeal". PU directs her to me and I start to walk to meet her halfway and instead of getting to me she hollers can I appeal that. I said no, I saw it. End of conversation.

Hmmmm...maybe the OP is one of those moments where I'd respond "Coach, before I go to my partner, I need to get my dog out of the car. I can't see that far up the baseline!" :p

Sad thing is, I could name a few umpires who could honestly make this claim!

Unless it is to get your foot out of his @$$. :D

RANT ON!:mad:
Why would you throw the only person who might even be remotely on your side under the bus? No otherwise. Get his *** back in the dugout and play ball. The only person you are helping is the coach. Meanwhile, you've now undermined any credibility you might have had AND undermined your partner. You now owe your partner two beers, a steak and an B. F.apology.

The ballfield is not this sterile, PC place where we try to placate everyone (even up here in PC paradise, more about that later), and we especially don't placate coaches. If you want coaches to be your friend, then go coach.

RANT OFF! FOR NOW!!!!

I must be missing something here. I don't see where anyone has been thrown anywhere. It seems the umpire used this as a game management tool. No big deal. I am making an assumption the umpires were familiar and comfortable with each other and knew what was going on. AND was familiar enough with the teams to know what needed to be done.

No, I will not go for help on any judgment. But I will go if a coach/player can voice a specific concern that deals with additional information which may have affected the call which my partner may provide. If I have a familiar veteran partner, s/he will already be discretely telling me if they have something.

Now, if an umpire goes to his partner, does not get info that would change a call and changes it anyway. Now THAT is a problem unless he has explained a problem and his partner agrees to take the heat PRIOR to the umpire making the call.

I have never had that happen, but am aware of times it has happened to other umpires.

Whoa! We are talking about a game management tool here. In a situation that was not even mine. I said if, and only if this would end it, then fine. I got no problem with the way it was handled.

And as far as throwing my partner under the bus? I just don't see that here. If I trust my partner why should I have a problem going to him on anything other then judgement. After all he is my only friend. And assuming he has my back on this situation, as he should. I really don't think I have helped the coach with anything. If anything we just told him 'no you are wrong' twice without every raising my voice.

I guess I don't see a reason to get riled up here. But this seems to happen anytime anyone talks about going to their partner on this forum.

yeah! what bkb said! :mad:

We dont have to take that crap anymore. Tell em how it is.

:cool: :D

I don't see a reason to get riled up, either. It's not a question about "should I ever go to my partner?" It's a question of "should I go to my partner just because I've been asked to?"

If you go to your partner every time you're asked, I don't think you're throwing your partner under the bus. You're throwing yourself under the bus.

For those of you that don't know, my oldest son, MTD, Jr. (a freshmen in college this year), is in his 2nd year of umpiring H.S. baseball and during the summer also umpires ASA and USSSA fastpitch. Last summer in a boys' 14U baseball game, he had had a batter-rummer out at first base on a semi-close play. The offensive team's HC was using a substitute as a first base coach because his assistant coach had to work 2nd shift. After Mark had made the call he comes trotting out to Jr., from his third base coaching box, and asked Mark what he saw and Mark replied: I saw the batter make an out. That ended the discussion.

MTD, Sr.

My type of ball player.