New Official (Almost) with a Question
 

Folks, I am in the process of getting my softball license. Is it possible to catch a fly ball that has become dead for a out?

If the ball's dead, it's dead for a reason (either someone's automatically out, or runners automatically advance, etc.). All play stops at that point.

So the short answer is "no." :)

Looking at the "BALL DEAD IMMEDIATELY" TABLES on page 47, Item "11 states "Fair ball over fence in flight or prevented by specator or player's detached equipment" is a Dead Ball (Reference 5-1-1f).

I really don't understand what this is saying, could someone elaborate PLEASE?

dead ball... award all runners home plate.

If the batter hits an out-of-the-park home run, it is a dead ball with all four bases awarded. If the outfielder throws his glove to knock the home run down, or a fan reaches over the outfield fence to keep the ball on the field, it is still a dead ball with all four bases awarded.

To understand the intent of the rule is that if a fan touches the ball, it is dead. If a batter throws his glove and hits the ball, it is dead. If the ball goes over the fence, it is dead even though it hasn't touched anything yet.

It appears that the first two deal with hitting something while the last one (the fence) deals with a plane boundary (like the goal line in football or a foul ball while in the air), are these correct assumptions on my part?

In actual practice, the ball must touch something on the other side, because outfielders can legally reach over and bring back a ball for an out if it is still in flight. The rule isn't that precise in the wording, however.

The secondary part is that an illegal act (fan interference or detached player equipment) that prevents the home run should be awarded (and treated the same) as a home run.

question: is this scored as a home run or a 4 base award? or are they the same darn thing? :confused:

An umpire would only care about it if they were working a game where there was a predetermined limit of home runs

Where there is no limit, it really doesn't make a difference.

I guess what I am struggling with is the Rule 5.1.1 [Dead Ball] wording that states Ball becomes dead immediately when a fair batted ball, which is on or over fair ground, goes over, through or wedges in the field fence.

This appears to be the equivalent of the over the cylinder in basketball and a kick going over the goal line in football. The ball appears to be dead immediately when it goes over the fence.

How can a fielder catch a dead-ball by reaching over the fence and it still be a catch. I can't find any other rules that support this nor can I find a case book play which supports this. I took at look at the ASA, NCAA, and Pro-Baseball rules and they don't have such a dead-ball rule.

If a catch is supposed to happen, why wouldn't the rules reflect that the ball wouldn't be dead until it hits something in dead-ball territory???:confused:

"Goes over" is interpreted to mean "hits something on the other side." It does not indicate anything like breaking the plane of the fence or, as in basketball, being in the cylinder. A ball isn't over the fence until it hits something.

A few years ago, ASA recognized this ambiguity and revised its rule about a ball hitting the glove and then going over the fence. The revision covered a ball that is already "over" the fence when it hits the glove (ie, the fielder reaches beyond the fence and hits it). Most people had interpreted the rule correctly but, probably in response to some sort of protest, ASA spelled out in black and white that either way, it's a four-base award.

Because the rules are the skeleton of umpiring that must be fleshed out with authoritative interpretations. The literal meaning of many rules is often refined by their customary application. See AtlUmpSteve's post above for the customary application of an outfielder catching a ball after it has broken the plane of the outfield fence.

I guess since the rules are skeletons that must be fleshed out with authoritative interpretations, we Newbies don't have a chance to understand the rules that aren't written correctly or when case book plays aren't available for support.

Maybe the skeleton/flesh metaphor is misleading. I'd say at least 90% of the body of rules knowledge is contained in the language of the rules. By your screen name and your join date, I'd bet you are an experienced soccer ref who uses more than their words in applying the rules.

Hope for newbies lies in asking questions and monitoring a good umpire forum and learning from mistakes. I admire your effort. I try hard, but I have few if any perfect games under my belt.

The rule book is merely the foundation. Every possible situation, experienced or something stumbled across in the future, cannot be addressed in black and white.

The Newbie needs to attend clinics and schools on a regular, never-ending basis.

FeetBallRef, the official baseball rule book has changed little over the past century. It is not very long, and much of the wording is by now quite well known, familiar even to the general public.

Still, there are several volumes of material, published by various authorities, that explain how to interpret the rule book. J/R, MLBUM, PBUC, BRD, and Evans are among the best known. (Even then, there are ambiguities and disagreements.) In other words, as with the U.S. Constitution, there are the relatively few words, and then there are the enormous quantities of interpretation.

Folks, A few more questions & hopefully I'll be a happy camper.

If the Fielder leaves their feet in fair territory and catches the ball over the fence and then lands over the fence in dead-ball territory, it is still a catch correct???

If the Fielder reaches over the fence to catch the ball, the ball hits the heel of the glove and the ball then comes back over the fence in fair territory and hits the ground, it is a fair ball that is in play like any other ball hit into the outfield, correct???

:confused::confused:

Rule books differ in their requirements for what is a catch versus not a catch when the fielder goes out of bounds. However, as far as I know (and other guys correct me if I'm wrong), if a fielder catches a fly ball (meeting all of that org's requirements for what constitutes a catch) with both of her feet in live ball territory and THEN goes out of bounds, it's a catch, regardless of the rule organization. If the fielder has control of the ball with both feet in live ball territory, ASA calls this one a catch. It doesn't require the fielder to take a step or two steps or make a football move, etc. Both feet in live ball territory + control of ball in glove OR hand = catch.

So long as the ball never touched anything in dead ball territory, yes. It's the same as if it had been hit to the middle of the outfield.

Assuming there is no question with the "catch" (different discussion), a fielder is still considered in play and available to make a legal catch as long as neither foot is completely in contact with DBT. If any part of the foot is in contact with the "out of play" line, the player is considered in play for the purposes of making the catch. ASA 1.Catch.A.3

Assuming this occurred between the foul poles, yes it is still in play. If outside the foul poles when touched, it is a foul ball regardless of where it lands when it returns to the field of play.

Speaking ASA (and probably just about every other rule set)

Below is some info from ASA & NFHS.

Most newer fields [not that I get to work a lot of those] have outfield fences that are high enough that a player couldn't fall over after making a catch. But if the fence was short enough where a player could jump up, make a catch, and then fall backwards over the fence, I'm assuming the catch/out stands and any runners would advance one base.

Softball & baseball have different rules, obviously. I'm thinking of an outfielder in Fenway Park robbing a hitter of a home run in right field and then falling over the fence. Are baserunners awarded a base then? Sorry to sully the softball forum with a baseball reference.

Ted

ASA

CATCH/NO CATCH:

A. A catch is a legally caught ball, which occurs when the fielder catches a
batted, pitched or thrown ball with the hand(s) or glove/mitt.

1. To establish a valid catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to
prove control of it and/or that the release of the ball is voluntary.

2. If the ball is merely held in the fielder’s arm(s) or prevented from dropping
to the ground by some part of the fielder’s body, equipment or clothing,
the catch is not completed until the ball is in the grasp of the fielder’s
hand(s) or glove.

3. The fielder’s feet must be within the field of play, touching the “out of
play” line or in the air after leaving live ball territory in order to have a
valid catch. A player who is “out of play” and returns must have both
feet touching live ball territory or one foot touching and the other in the
air, for the catch to be legal.

B. It is not a catch:

1. If a fielder, while gaining control, collides with another player, umpire
or a fence, or falls to the ground and drops the ball as a result of the
collision or falling to the ground.

2. If a ball strikes anything other than a defensive player while it is in flight
is the same as if it struck the ground.

3. When a fielder catches a batted or thrown ball with anything other than
the hand(s) or glove in its proper place.

CATCH AND CARRY: A legal catch that a defensive player carries into dead ball territory.


NFHS

2-9-4… For a legal catch, a fielder must catch and have secure possession of the ball before stepping, touching or falling into a dead-ball area. A fielder who falls over or through the fence after making a catch shall be credited with the catch. A fielder who catches a ball while contacting or stepping on a collapsible fence, which is not completely horizontal, is credited with a catch.

NFHS Casebook 5.1.1 Situation K: While attempting to make a catch, F3 (a) leaves live-ball territory with one foot and then steps back into live-ball territory to make the catch, or (b) dives from live-ball territory and, before coming to rest landing completely in dead-ball territory, makes the catch. RULING: In (a) and (b), the catch is allowed. In (b), the ball becomes dead as soon as either, one of F3’s feet touches completely in dead-ball territory, or any other part of her body touches dead-ball territory. Runners are awarded one base. (5-1-1i Note: 8-4-3i)