Dead ball question
 

R1 on third, first pitch is fouled to the ground behind catcher - dead ball. Catcher retreives ball and overthrows pitcher...

Is the play still dead and can the runner advance at her own risk?

The runner "can" advance as far as she likes, but there is no risk. :D When she is done, I'm just sending her back to 3rd since the ball is dead.

Thanks Irish. As a first year coach, it is good when I learn something new.

In this case, the ball is dead until the pitcher has the ball and is ready to take her signal, correct?

Almost...

PU has to give the pitcher the signal "Play ball". At that point the pitcher is allowed to start the pitch and is the game not "dead" anymore.

How many of us (umpires) give a play ball signal after a foul ball??? IMO, once the pitcher has the ball in the circle again and steps onto the pitcher's plate we are good to go.

With runners I will, with the bases empty I don't. The runners can't be put out until the ball is live.

Here in the dutch top-softball, over 70% of the umpires do give the signal. It's the way we are educated and the way of the ESF (european softball fed.). Don't know how many in the US use the play ball signal; the ump's from the US I've worked with (as Larry White) do also use it...

Even the US-pitchers playing here in the Neth.'s wait for the umpire to give the signal...

You know, I never really thought much about it, but I also hold up the pitch while the batter gets settled back in the box. I then give the play ball signal.

And I call SP.

Huh... Weird.

Here is another DB situation question:

R1 on 1st. BR hits line shot to RF who fields it cleanly in the air for an out. She then tries to pick off R1 with a shot back to 1st and overthrows. The ball strikes the retired BR heading back to the dugout and ricochets off her leg toward the catcher. When R1 sees the ball hit and go off BR she runs to 2nd, the catcher retrieves the loose ball and then the play is over.

NFHS Slowpitch Ruleset.

What if anything needs to be done now?

Why would this be a dead ball situation?

Don't know about Fed, but in ASA that would be a blocked ball. That would be a dead ball, R1 is returned to 1B.

Off a player? This must be one I don't understand very well. I thought only equipment could make a ball blocked. For a player I had interference or nothing. No?

If this is the case, why wouldn't the ball be blocked if after a (caught) strikeout the BR were hit with the ball while not interfering?
________
Brook live

ASA 1 Definitions:

BLOCKED BALL: A batted, pitched or thrown ball that is touched, stopped or handled by a person not engaged in the game, or which touches loose equipment or any object that is not part of the official equipment or official playing area.

I'm also wondering why this would be a dead ball. What if the ball had hit the 1B coach instead of the retired batter. Any difference?

Ted

It hit a retired runner who is a part of the game in my opinion. If it wasn't intentional I've got a big fat nothin'

ASA 8-7.P makes it interference if an already retired or scored runner intentionally interferes; ASA 8-7.O makes it interference if a coach intentionally interferes. 8-7.O makes it clear that if the ball unintentionally hits the coach, it is not interference; and we know an unintentional hitting of the coach is not a blocked ball, it remains live. Base coaches are "engaged in the game", and are given (my words) certain partial immunity from accidental interference (other than keeping a fielder from fielding a batted ball for an out).

We also state that runners that are put out are not expected to go "poof"; they are there engaged in the game, at least until they are out, and have (again, my words) partial immunity from accidental interference. Using an expected (if not specified) consistency, I have to conclude that an equally unintentional hitting of a retired runner would also not be a blocked ball, and the ball would remain live. Retired runners are, in my mind, also engaged in the game to some degree; they are expected to be on the field, but they cannot interfere with impunity. Just as the coaching box and batters box are not safe havens, there are no safe havens defined for retired runners; but they don't go poof.

Now, I will extend my personal definition of intentional in these cases to include failing to avoid or failing to attempt to avoid if either are reasonably to be expected; but don't believe I have a blocked ball here without interference.

JMO; no black and white support available either way.

I agree with Steve's explanation and also think it's relevant to note that this situation was caused by a badly thrown ball by the defense. That's another part of the reasoning why I most likely have nothing but a live ball.

I second Steve's agreement with Steve.

Blocked ball...one of my favorite rules. Unlike the "look back" rule, the blocked ball rule has stayed true to its century-plus-old roots.

If this were to cause a dead ball, it would sent the game to "kick ball" status.
Runners running around the bases? Simply fire one at the retired BR and all will stop....................... I think not. Therefore, no blocked ball, no interference, no dead ball.

I don't disagree with anything Steve has posted. However, my opinion is based upon these five simple words "heading back to the dugout".

Even if you consider the retired player still engaged in the game, then they need to be "engaged" in the game. A retired offensive player has an obligation to be aware of and avoid being involved with continuing play. Being put out does not give a player Carte Blanche to just pop up and go to wherever it is s/he wants to go.

If a runner was forced at 2B on the front end of a 6-4-3 double play, popped up and enroute to the 3B dugout was hit by a throw back to pick-off a runner on 3B, we would be calling interference. If the catcher was chasing the ball and got tangled up with the retired player keeping her from making a play with a runner on the move, would that also be a live ball and play on?

We are not discussing a coach or runner going "poof" in the base line as the rules protect them because they are where they are supposed to be. Even the ODB stationed in a designated area is not protected and must avoid interfering with a live ball.

I can probably offer a dozen or more "what ifs", but there is no reason to waste the keystrokes.

Obviously, every scenario is an HTBT situation, but in this case, based on the information given, I'll stand on the blocked ball.

HTBT, absolutely. That's the "partial immunity". We don't seem to be disgreeing on the concept, just how we envision the described play in the OP.

When I think NFHS slowpitch, I think a fairly small field, at least so far as foul ball territory in the infield. I envision the overthrow of 1st traveling 10-15 feet beyond F3 when it hits the retired BR, who had little or no opportunity to react, and no reason to not head toward her dugout entrance after the fly is caught.

It seems like you envision a more open field with more foul ball territory, a retired batter-runner paying no attention and just wandering aimlessly in foul ball territory without paying attention, that had plenty of chance to avoid the overthrow, but didn't.

HTBT.

I wish I could describe it better. The BR was not paying attention to the play at all and while not "wandering aimlessly", I thought she could have made it back into the dugout in time and or if she was paying attention could have possibly avoided the throw. With that thought we let the play finish and then got together and decided that the retired BR should have avoided the ball and had the ball not went off her leg that the play would have ended there so we put the runner back on 1st.

Now, reading through this, we may have made a mistake. Thank goodness it did not end up affecting the game as that is the last thing I would have wanted. It was a playoff game and both my partner and I were wanting to make sure to get everything right and at the time we thought we made the best call we could.

Don't know why you thought you made a mistake. If you truly thought she should have avoided it, you got it right by making her go back to 1B. No one on this message board was there but you. Sounds like to me you nailed it.

I don't think it is so much about avoiding being involved in the play as opposed to being cognizant to avoid being involved in the play. Everyone in playable territory whether defenders, runners, batters, ODB, retired runners, coaches and even players warming up in an open bull pen area inside the fences have an obligation to be aware of all play and their responsibilities. Obviously, this is something that is coached even with rec youth ball.

I think you need to be consistant. Like I said, if the player kept a fielder from getting the ball for a play, it is INT. If the errant throw is heading toward the fence/backstop where the catcher is waiting for ball and kicks off the retired player enroute to the dugout and goes through a dugout gate, you will have a serious discussion with at least one coach no matter how you rule. So, why leave the ball live?

Is my blocked ball ruling a survival call? I guess you could look at it that way, but it is supported by rule, not something I am ad libbing.