Fair/foul call

NCASAUmp

MNBlue wrote
No, I don't think so. 😕

The scenario is a fly ball that lands beyond a diagonal from 1B to 3B BUT in front of the baselines from 1B-2B-3B and subsequently rolls into foul territory not beyond 1B or 3B.

I'm saying that ASA says this is a foul ball and the interpretation I was given for NFHS is that it is a fair ball.

Sorry, I should have also quoted A...

ASA-1-Fair Ball-A: Settles or is touched on or over fair territory between home and first base or between home and third base.

I think you need to read the wording a little closer. A, B and E deal with everything from home plate to the square formed by the baselines. F, G and H deal with everything beyond that.

I agree with you that both ASA and NFHS need something to handle this scenario, and I have no problem with your call. Just which rule you're invoking. 🙂

MNBlue

NCASAUmp wrote
F, G and H deal with everything beyond that.

Exactly. That is why I used it. ASA 1.Fair Ball.F says an untouched batted ball that lands beyond the diamond will be a fair ball even if it rolls into foul territory. This means that an untouched batted ball that lands inside the diamond and rolls into foul territory will be a foul ball.

The interpretation of the NFHS rule is in conflict with this.

NCASAUmp

MNBlue wrote
Exactly. That is why I used it. ASA 1.Fair Ball.F says an untouched batted ball that lands beyond the diamond will be a fair ball even if it rolls into foul territory. This means that an untouched batted ball that lands inside the diamond and rolls into foul territory will be a foul ball.

The interpretation of the NFHS rule is in conflict with this.

So you use the inverse of a rule as a rule? 🙂

Are you in IT, by any chance?

If using this logic, then the tie must definitely go to the runner. Just picking. 😉

MNBlue

NCASAUmp wrote
Are you in IT, by any chance?

I used to be. 😛

I would have used any of the cites in 1.Foul Ball, but none of them seemed to apply to the situation. The closest was the inverse of 1.Fair Ball.F.

NCASAUmp

MNBlue wrote
I used to be. :p

Damn! I called that one! Must take one to know one. 😀

MNBlue wrote
I would have used any of the cites in 1.Foul Ball, but none of them seemed to apply to the situation. The closes was the inverse of 1.Fair Ball.F.

Again, that's my problem with the wording. I realize this has probably a one in a million chance of happening, but when it does happen, we want some clarity. A diagonal, in my opinion, is no good, as we have nothing on the field to reference one (what? we want more lines?!). I think what is INTENDED is for us to use the baselines, and that's what I'll call.

MNBlue

NCASAUmp wrote
I think what is INTENDED is for us to use the baselines, and that's what I'll call.

You don't work NFHS fastpitch do you?

IRISHMAFIA

What is so hard about this? This is simple. The definitions note specifics that make a batted ball fair or foul.

It is not a matter that the batted ball meets an event-specific definition. The point is the batted ball does NOT meet the definition of a fair ball, therefore cannot be a fair ball.

NCASAUmp

MNBlue wrote
You don't work NFHS fastpitch do you?

Nope! ASA SP only.

NCASAUmp

IRISHMAFIA wrote
What is so hard about this? This is simple. The definitions note specifics that make a batted ball fair or foul.

It is not a matter that the batted ball meets an event-specific definition. The point is the batted ball does NOT meet the definition of a fair ball, therefore cannot be a fair ball.

The only thing "hard" about this is the fact that it's just one of those things that's understood as simple common sense, but I can picture some nutball coach trying and (cringe... possibly even successfully) arguing that this is a fair ball. Maybe they're used to NFHS. Maybe they're used to some 65' (or whatever your base distance is) arch across the field. Maybe they're used to space aliens with IR looking over the field. Who knows?

We know what the call is. The point is: how?

IRISHMAFIA

NCASAUmp wrote
We know what the call is. The point is: how?

How? I just told you how. The batted ball does not meet the definition of a fair ball. Okay, if it isn't a fair ball, what else can it be?:rolleyes:

NCASAUmp

IRISHMAFIA wrote
How? I just told you how. The batted ball does not meet the definition of a fair ball. Okay, if it isn't a fair ball, what else can it be?:rolleyes:

My point is... "Beyond" what? If it stops a few feet shy of 2B, which is 91' 11" on a 65' base field, then rolls into foul territory on the HP side of 1B or 3B, one may argue that it went almost 25' beyond 1B or 3B.

Note I said "argue" and not "reason." 😀

Can we enforce an un-rule?

Andy

MNBlue wrote
NFHS 2.20.1.f
A fair ball is a batted ball that:
first falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first or third base.

ASA 1.Fair Ball.F
A legally batted ball that:
First falls or is first touched on or over fair territory beyond first, second or third base.

Our NFHS State UIC has told us (me directly) that the NFHS ruling for a batted ball that first lands beyond a direct line from 1B to 3B is a fair ball, since the NFHS definition does not include 2B and ASA's definition does include 2B.

That is the closest to a ruling that I can find.

This may just be muddying the waters further, but I believe that NFHS interpretation is for baseball. No definitive source, I just seem to recall reading that somewhere.

I understand that the two rules (ASA and NFHS) are worded differently, but personally, I have never heard of a different interp for NFHS. I don't think that this is one of the things covered in the rules differences document, either.

IRISHMAFIA

NCASAUmp wrote
My point is... "Beyond" what? If it stops a few feet shy of 2B, which is 91' 11" on a 65' base field, then rolls into foul territory on the HP side of 1B or 3B, one may argue that it went almost 25' beyond 1B or 3B.

Note I said "argue" and not "reason." 😀

Can we enforce an un-rule?

One may argue that stealing is only allowed during a full moon. Doesn't mean I'm going to stand there and listen to it.

WestMichBlue

Andy wrote
I understand that the two rules (ASA and NFHS) are worded differently, but personally, I have never heard of a different interp for NFHS. I don't think that this is one of the things covered in the rules differences document, either.

I raised this issue with a former member of the NFHS committee. His personal interpretation was to go with the "triangle" view, but he said that he would check with Indy. Today the following came back:

The NFHS says their interpretation would be the same as the NCAA and ASA interpretation, making it a foul ball. They will work on better language for the “beyond first and third” parts of the foul and fair definitions.

WMB

Tex

Foul ball in both ASA and NFHS. Ball did not touch or go past 1st base. Simple as that. Don't understand the confusion. The ball can touch in right field, spin back toward 1st base, and go over the foul line between home and 1st base. All of this without being touched. The result is a foul ball.

youngump

Tex wrote
Foul ball in both ASA and NFHS. Ball did not go past 1st base. Simple as that. Don't understand the confusion.

The confusion is simple it's unclear from the rulebook itself what the definition of past first base is. Does a ball which hits second pass 1st base? That depends on which direction you're facing. [Yes, I know it's fair anyway.]
________
Switzel live

MNBlue

Tex wrote
The ball can touch in right field, spin back toward 1st base, and go over the foul line between home and 1st base. All of this without being touched. The result is a foul ball.

This is not true. If the ball first lands beyond first base, and subsequently rolls untouched into foul territory, it will be a fair ball.

wadeintothem

Holy "way-to-complicate-something-very-simple, batman."

In ASA and NFHS (and likely every other league, including the yemini slayer of the infidel softball federation) I have a foul ball. The rules are the same. If some individual state rule interpreter is messing up the rule for NFHS in your state, thats for your state only.

This is a foul ball. Simple.

IRISHMAFIA

wadeintothem wrote
Holy "way-to-complicate-something-very-simple, batman."

In ASA and NFHS (and likely every other league, including the yemini slayer of the infidel softball federation) I have a foul ball. The rules are the same. If some individual state rule interpreter is messing up the rule for NFHS in your state, thats for your state only.

Apparently not since more than one person, not from the same state has received the same interp. And, BTW, I first heard it in a clinic well more than a dozen years ago.

wadeintothem

hmm.. maybe an east coast thing with your neck slice double fist pump outs and stuff. 😀

I've never heard it in a clinic, seen it in a NFHS exam or in their case book.

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