The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 11:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Botched Squeeze, Tag @ 3rd

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200810073600013

Any discussion?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 11:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 741
Send a message via Yahoo to MNBlue
I thought it was a good call when I saw it live.
__________________
Mark

NFHS, NCAA, NAFA
"If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?" Anton Chigurh - "No Country for Old Men"
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 11:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Good call. Ball in control on the tag, came out after the tag due to contact with the ground.

When I first saw the play, I thought he was tagged with an empty mitt...
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 11:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota View Post
Good call. Ball in control on the tag, came out after the tag due to contact with the ground.

When I first saw the play, I thought he was tagged with an empty mitt...
I happened to catch this play as I was walking out of the restaurant after spending a regular MNF evening with fellow umpires.

Two things were obvious:

Varitek demonstrated he was very conscious of maintaining possession of the ball by placing it in his glove prior to making the tag;

Some coaches are clueless.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 12:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 4,361
One way for the ump to explain the call:

"When can the ball come out of the glove, coach?"

"After the tag is made."

"Thanks, coach. That's exactly what happened. Play ball."
__________________
Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 01:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp View Post
One way for the ump to explain the call:

"When can the ball come out of the glove, coach?"

"After the tag is made."

"Thanks, coach. That's exactly what happened. Play ball."
Now you are assuming the coach is going to know the correct answer
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 02:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 4,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Now you are assuming the coach is going to know the correct answer
Yeah, kinda dangerous of me.

But you can (hopefully) get them to maybe kinda see some logic.

"The ball can't come out!"

"Then how does he throw the ball, coach?"

"Well, he must make a football move!"

"Wrong sport, coach. Keep going, you'll get there..."

"After the tag! After the tag! There, I said it!"

"Thanks, coach! Play ball!"
__________________
Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 02:30pm
Al Al is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 207
Send a message via Yahoo to Al
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp View Post
One way for the ump to explain the call:

"When can the ball come out of the glove, coach?"

"After the tag is made."

"Thanks, coach. That's exactly what happened. Play ball."
-------------

Hey NCASAUmp,

In the play; after a controlled tag, the ball came out of his glove as a result of hitting the ground. If in this very play the ball had come out of the glove directly "after the tag", before being knocked loose by the ground, would we have a non-controlled tag and therefore a safe call? I think that is what the coach thought happened but he quickly stopped his argument after the umpire explained the tag was controlled and came out of his glove as a result of impact with the ground.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 02:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 4,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al View Post
-------------

Hey NCASAUmp,

In the play; after a controlled tag, the ball came out of his glove as a result of hitting the ground. If in this very play the ball had come out of the glove directly "after the tag", before being knocked loose by the ground, would we have a non-controlled tag and therefore a safe call? I think that is what the coach thought happened but he quickly stopped his argument after the umpire explained the tag was controlled and came out of his glove as a result of impact with the ground.
I think we've hashed that sitch to death in another thread.
__________________
Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 02:50pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sherman, TX
Posts: 4,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post

Apparently I am blocked from the video streams at work.
__________________
Scott


It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 04:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skahtboi View Post
Apparently I am blocked from the video streams at work.
Don't trust you with the porn, huh?
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 07:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns
Posts: 3,220
Too quick on the timing = bad call with good excuse. He stands by his bad call, but he knows its a bad call.

There was no demonstration or indication of control at all IMO.

1/2 second of POSSIBLE control is not a demonstration of control by any stretch.

Bad call due to poor timing.

I doubt any of us make that call that quick.

But he's not dumb, so he knew not to compound it by changing it.

Clearly a bad call at full speed.

Admittedly not so horrible if the fall takes 3-4 seconds in slow mo.
__________________
ASA, NCAA, NFHS
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 09:06pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem View Post
Too quick on the timing = bad call with good excuse. He stands by his bad call, but he knows its a bad call.

There was no demonstration or indication of control at all IMO.

1/2 second of POSSIBLE control is not a demonstration of control by any stretch.

Bad call due to poor timing.

I doubt any of us make that call that quick.

But he's not dumb, so he knew not to compound it by changing it.

Clearly a bad call at full speed.

Admittedly not so horrible if the fall takes 3-4 seconds in slow mo.
The catcher made the tag. If there was no control of the ball, how is it the ball remained in the glove long after the tag was applied and then withdrawn from the runner?
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 09:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Sierra Nevada Mtns
Posts: 3,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
The catcher made the tag. If there was no control of the ball, how is it the ball remained in the glove long after the tag was applied and then withdrawn from the runner?
Your definition of long is different than mine. Perhaps you were told lies that you believe.
__________________
ASA, NCAA, NFHS
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 07, 2008, 09:53pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The 503
Posts: 785
Wade, I can see where this could be viewed as a bad call, and I agree with you that the umpire's timing was quick on it. Really, I can see both sides of this.

One book of OBR interpretations (Jaksa/Roder) says the call is indeed wrong--the fielder must hold onto the ball until he has control of his body. Jim Evans in his manual and at his school says he only needs to control the ball at the time of the tag; anything that happens afterwards is irrelevant. Several posters on the baseball forum have pointed out that this is the way it is called at the pro level and if this is the case, the call was correct according to the accepted interpretation. Like I said, though, the timing could have been better.

I do, however, find it difficult to reconcile the Evans interpretation with the case of a catcher being run over and dropping the ball when he hits the ground. I don't have an out in that case and I doubt many other baseball umpires would.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LLWS Regional Botched Appeal SAump Baseball 14 Tue Aug 12, 2008 07:36pm
Fg attempt botched what happens next??? BoBo Football 10 Mon Nov 05, 2007 04:30pm
Handling "botched" calls... ljudge Football 22 Wed Jun 15, 2005 07:26am
Squeeze play interference? tornado Baseball 4 Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:37am
AP OFF BOTCHED TIP PROPE Basketball 2 Mon Feb 28, 2000 10:14am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:05pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1