ASA Rule; Access to,
 

PLEASE NOTE: I am not accusing the OP of attempting to pirate games/tournaments from an ASA-registered umpire group as I have absolutely no knowledge of the circumstances.

The use of Brand X is not meant to be demeaning in any manner and is merely a generic reference for any sanctioning body other than ASA for the purpose of this discussion.

I don't want to be unappreciative of any umpire group and their willingness to umpire softball games, but this is the perfect post for a discussion concerning rule books.

As we all know, some don't understand or don't want to understand why ASA does not openly publish their rules on the internet. I also have had some local experience with this.

As previously noted, ASA considers it's rule book as part of the "perks" of ASA registration. Locally, there isn't much restriction, but training at the national level is for ASA registered umpire. Like it or not, even the umpire organizations and registrations are part of the business and the rules are treated as property.

This is part of the deal. Why provide training and information for a group that chooses not to register with ASA, but has no problem accepting games that should go to the local ASA association?

Seems to me if teams want to play ASA ball, they should be using ASA-trained umpires. And maybe the group in question may have a crew of good umpires, but shouldn't they be registered to work the games they are accepting?

From the OP, it seems obvious this group is not prepared to work ASA ball. If you are a coach, what are you going to do when an umpire applies Brand X rule to a specific play when you know that is not the ASA rule? As a player and coach, I have had umpires tell me, "we don't do ASA ball" at a tournament that was clearly advertised as ASA. Not much different when an umpire kicks a rule and his/her excuse is "well, that's the way we do it at home." Trust me, that will send a UIC off the deep end.

I would have to think that if Brand X had an umpire association work the competitors game instead of pushing them to register with Brand X, they wouldn't be too happy, either.

If you owned/operated a business, would you train your competitors employees?

Well, going this route is obviously a bad decision of whomever is coordinating the tournament, and it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what it takes to be an umpire within each association. Granted, about 90+% of the rules between almost every association overlap either in their wording or in their effect, but it's those last few percentiles that can become the real gotcha.

Unfortunately, not every rule association has the same kind of presence as other rule associations, and finding registered umpires in the area that won't require lodging and travel reimbursement can be a challenge. For example, I know of VERY few NSA umpires in NC, simply because most of the ball played around here is ASA.

Regardless, it's up to the TD to weigh the choice between using the book they wish to use (for whatever reason) and using the umpires in the area who are (or at least more likely to be) properly trained. However, hey... You get what you paid for.

I'm with Mike on this one, but I can certainly see both sides.

And I have, in the past, entered in on how I feel about this one. I know that Mike provides free training for umpires in his area. However, that is not the case in the area I am in. All ASA training around here, local, metro, state and national carry with it a fee. In some cases, a fairly substantial fee.

So, my belief is, just as the student in college, if I pay for my education, then you, the institution, have no right to tell me how to use this education. If I go to Baylor Medical School, they cannot tell me, that for the rest of my life, I have to work in a Baylor Medical franchise. Likewise, when I pay ASA for my training, they have no right to tell me that I can only use that training for ASA purposes. I am entirely within my rights to take the skills I have purchased from ASA, and go to Brand Z, Brand X, Brand Dos Equis, or whoever, and contract my services even though my skills are primarily those of an ASA umpire.

Just my .02, though looking at the way the market is going, it will on be my .0125 by the end of the day.

And therefore supporting an organization that doesnt care enough about umpiring to train its own.They would rather steal ASA trained umpires....and WHY would you work for an organization such as that?

Mike, are you lumping in the "published" rules availability with the mechanics and training availability? There's a fine line between the two when it comes to ASA in particular... but the two issues are separate, IMO. What do we care if Person A comes and trains and learns our mechanics, then leaves and goes to Brand X and works with our mechanics?

However, I am with you 100% when it comes to Brand X working Brand Y's games and trying to use Brand Y's rules and mechanics.

As an independent contractor I have the right to work for any organization that is providing games. I stay current with the various rules and attire.

ASA Fast pitch seems to be on the decline in the Metro DC area. I'm seeing more and more teams that used to only play ASA ball competing at NSA, U-Trip and PONY tournaments.

The issue becomes a matter of availability. If ASA-registered umpires aren't able to get into clinics because they're overbooked with non-ASA umpires, then that's a problem.

Of COURSE you have that right......but WHY wouldnt you stay loyal and support (and Improve) the organization that make the effort to actually train you? For a paycheck?

I agree with the vast majority of what Mike has said and have a few thoughts of my own -
- why would a non-sanctioned tournament worry about using ASA rules - or any other rules code for that matter.
-I've paid for the training I've gotten, most from ASA, but some from the high school group in my state and some through other organizations. So I do not feel an obligation to work only ASA games - and with the local ASA commissioner, I try to work for him as little as possible but that's a whole 'nother matter - one of his thought is that loyalty is a 1-way street.

Mike said "Seems to me if teams want to play ASA ball, they should be using ASA-trained umpires." Absolutely, who else could possibly know the ASA way of doing things, let alone ASA's rules.

"And maybe the group in question may have a crew of good umpires, but shouldn't they be registered to work the games they are accepting?" Again, absolutely. I do not think that I'd be willing to work a Brand X game or tournament if I was not registered with Brand X (and my use of Brand X here inludes ASA and all other sanctioning bodies).

Darrell makes a good point with "And therefore supporting an organization that doesnt care enough about umpiring to train its own.They would rather steal ASA trained umpires....and WHY would you work for an organization such as that?" To the best of my knowledge, the other sanctioning bodies I work games for do have some umpire training - I just have not taken their training. The local chapter that I belong to provides umpires for ASA and a couple of other groups. We strive to call ASA games the ASA way and Brand X games the Brand X way.

I may be wrong to do so, but I feel there is a distinct difference in ASA sanctioned tournaments like qualifiers, regionals, etc. and non ASA tournaments being played by ASA rules, which is the case in the OP. The former absolutely should require ASA "certified" officials, while the latter only officials with ASA rules knowledge.

As to mechanics, I don't feel any obligation to use strickly ASA mechanics even when working ASA sanctioned tournaments. While one rule set may not be fundimentally superior to another, some mechanics are and I will use those that make the most sense and put me in the best position to success.

I see both sides of this arguement and don't like any of them!:D

My comments below are only based on my experience in my area, other areas are compeltely different I am sure.
1) ASA is the only training in my area, the other alphabets really have none, pay your money get your license and go umpire. You can with ASA too, but you have the opportunity to get training, and you don't move up (state tournies, Nationals) until you have gotten training.
2) I see guys jumping to other organizations for the money. "why not go make $30 a game for 1 hr 15 min time limit? I only get 25 a game as ASA and there is no time limit (or 1hr 45min)." I have heard that a number of times, to me as a player why would I want to play in their tournies over ASA if the time limits are truly that different?
3) As a trained ASA umpire you are far better than the untrained folks (again my knowledge of this area). Guys have told me they look like heros compared to the guys that are calling ball around here. I have seen pictures of these umpires, just unprofessional dress, standing with arms folded when umpiring bases, etc. But an ASA guy that cares can go over to the Brand X world and be considered an elite official.
4) People not happy with their progression through ASA ranks. Around here you are evaluated by UIC's that is reviewed and your assignments are increased based on your experience and ability. Some feel they are not elevated to a high enough level, they feel they are better than the assignments they are getting, should have been at 18U gold instead of a 12U, etc. So they go to Brand X where they are just happy to have a warm body, they look darn good compared to someone that has no training so they get the "good" assignments.

Again just the things I have heard from umpires and coaches in this area that play all sorts of brands of softball.

I also agree that anyone should be able to take their training and use it anywhere they want to, Purdue didn't tell me where to go to work when I paid them for my degree, so I bet ASA won't either. BUT I do think that is an issue I paid them for it. I deserve to use it where I want to, the OP (from my understanding) is looking for a hand out, give me a test to give my guys/gals and the answers please. Well IMO that is not right ASA works VERY hard to publish the rule books, and make tests develop training...they will provide all these things to you, if you register (pay) and attend training classes (usually a fee). I see no issue with them asking for $$ to provide you with training, I know I am still paying on student loans where I got training.

Okay, let's take a step back.

I thought I was clear that I was simply using the post as a reason ASA acts in the manner they do when choosing to take steps to protect their product.

NO WHERE did I even suggest that an umpire should be limited in their use of the knowledge they gained at their expense. NO WHERE did I suggest that an umpire shouldn't work for more than one association. I have repeatedly stated that I will never tell an umpire that s/he cannot work games of the competing sanctioning bodies. However, I do ask that in exchange for the training, communications and information provided, the umpire give the local association the consideration they would like from the local association.

There is also another issue for umpires that the OP may not have taken into consideration. If a tournament is not sanctioned with the same organization as the umpire and the teams, their insurance is not in effect. Of course, many umpires carry additional insurance that may help cover a multitude of situations, but this is something many umpires sometimes fail to take into consideration. BTW, U-trip is the same as ASA. All teams must be registered and the tournament sanctioned by them for the insurance to kick in.

But again, my post has nothing to do with any umpire here or anywhere else. Just noting part of ASA's deal.

ASA/NFHS Only!
 

I won't touch or even consider any games that are not ASA or Fed. Why? I don't know, other than I personally consider the other sanctioning bodies to be "Johnny Come Latelies".
I could do USSSSSSSSSA and probably make more money but the umpires around here that I know that do are not what I aspire to be. The umpires that I see moving up i.e. college ball are the ones that are ASA/NFHS only.
There is some unsanctioned ball around here that I won't return the calls for and it's not for insurance if I get hurt, it's liability and I really like the roof over my family's head and the last time I asked they appreciate not being rained on.
My main problem with ASA is that they seem to sit idly by while the other organizations move in and take away teams and programs. No one monitors growth or contraction, or if they do, they fail to take action. If they want to stay the "premier" sanctioning body in softball they need to realize that they would be well served to look beyond So Cal.

EXACTLY my thoughts....


I would be NICE to see ASA actually make an effort, instead of standing on its "governing body of softball" rhetoric. The lack of attention to the SP game has been shameful for years....

When there's no ASA games during the week or tournaments on the weekends, I'm umpiring where the games are played.

I support ASA by paying my dues, attending their clinics and umpiring ASA games when they are available.

Well, I feel differently from some of you, and I know I am not alone in feeling the way I feel.

I have been afforded many opportunities in ASA. Perhaps it's the leadership role taken by SMSUA. My first year as an SMSUA member, I worked the dish at a regional final and worked a Western National. I've had numerous other opportunities in ASA, high school and community college ball under the auspices of SMSUA.

As a trainer and mentor here, I do have a problem with folks working for Brand X, Y or Z. We are very fortunate in that we have an ASA JO invitational type tournament every weekend from March through July, and September-October -- unless we have ASA championship play scheduled for a weekend. So, we have lots of opportunities to wear our ASA uniforms.

I feel those folks who are working the other brands up here are taking money from my pocket and from our umpire organization. It is no secret that our training is superior to that offered by others (if they even offer training -- and from the horror stories I have heard I doubt they do much if any training). Heck, one of the high mucky-mucks from Brand X went through our SMSUA training.

I feel someone who goes through ASA training in our association should be loyal to ASA if they seek assignments to championship play. IMHO, no matter where they are located, umpires working for other softball organizations should not openly expect assignments to ASA championship play.

Does the term "independent contractor" mean anything to you? What would compel someone to pass up $35-$40/game to work for $25/game? Loyalty? The opportunity to take a week's vacation and travel to an ASA natiional to work for $18-$20? Wake up and smell the cost of living.

Well, there is the matter of being able to say you worked an ASA national. There is more to umpiring than money, you know.

You can go work wherever you want; just don't expect an organization to give you the best assignments if you do not contribute to that organization when needed.

Some of us are more BLUE than GREEN. I would venture to say that most of us on this board actually work to get to the big tournament and game. Many are thrilled to get the nod because of our effort and work ethics, not necessarily because of longevity and/or availability.

Many of us would do it for nothing and I'm sure some on this board have been there and done that.

I just work to have fun. I want to be the best, yes, but I don't care about the money or the big game.

I have always chosen hobbies that have challenged me in one way or another. When I was in Alaska I earned my private pilots license. It was a very challenging but very expensive hobby. Officiating is also challenging if approached the right way but it also happens to pay for gas. Would I do it for free? Probably, at least to some extent but not as much as I do now.

I'm going to say what I'm positive others are thinking.

Would I do it for free? Hell no. Put up with whiney players (adult league) or obnoxious parents (youth... and adult league) without something for my efforts? Not on your life.

Is it about the money? No. Don't confuse "wanting a little something for my troubles" with "money, money, money." Gas prices are high. I have a mortgage. I'm away from my wife.

Have I or would I volunteer now and then? Absolutely. My first 4 years behind the plate were actually spent volunteering for local kids' games - kids that could otherwise be hanging around in the streets and getting into trouble. I certainly enjoy calling ball, and if the group is a good group, I'll gladly do it.

But if my assignor asked me to call ball for free for a month, I'd tell him he's nucking futs! :D

First off, I want to know what this has to do with needing money? :eek:

Second, you are not reading the posts. The issue was raised over making more money working a local game or less working an ASA national.

Again, no where was it suggested anyone umpire for free, in general.

I gotta call BS on these quotes guys. Thinking back on your umpiring career, take away the money you were paid and you would do this for free? It has to do a little with the $$$. To practice what you preach, I suggest you do an entire year for free, no cash payments or reimbursements of any kind, including paying for your food/drink at the concessions.

I am into this (umpiring) for more than the money, but the money is part of it. It has to be and to insinuate the money doesn't matter is not quite truthful.

If I'm gonna be away from her, I'd better be bringing home the bacon! ;)

Yeah, I guess I kinda missed that part, didn't I? I just saw a number of recent posts that said, "I don't do it for the money... I don't do it for the money..." I know a lot of us feel that way, but I can't believe every umpire that says that. ;)

I have a better idea. Send me your game fees, and I'll hold it for ya.

In return for some venison, of course. :D

I think you are totally missing what I am saying. (No...I know you are totally missing what I am saying.) Do I appreciate the money I receive? Of course. Do I need it, or is that the reason I umpire? No. The cost of umpiring is such that I need some compensation just to afford it. But it is a hobby to me. Nothing more. A hobby that happens to earn back what I put in to it, and sometimes just a fraction more. If I were doing it solely for the money, I could get a part time job at a local Wal-Mart and make a lot more.

If it were about the money, then I wouldn't be umpiring. Case in point. So far this year, I am in the hole financially where umpiring is concerned. The closest I can work on a regular basis the type of ball I want to work is 40 miles away, though I frequently work as much as 100 miles away. (Once this year, I worked a tournament that was almost 300 miles from my house.) When you factor in the gas, wear and tear on my vehicle and my equipment, the food that I do have to purchase, the upgrades in equipment and uniforms, the dues to all the various organizations and local associations, the money for training...etc., so far this year I have paid to umpire. Literally.

Free would be a break. (It would imply that at least I broke even)

Last year, because I spent a little less on upgrades and was able to work a full collegiate and high school season (health problems kept me to just half a season this year), I actually earned right at $1,000. That was a banner year!

Money is an enticemnt, certainly. But if all I wanted was the income, I'd be doing something else, 'cuz I'd be making a whole lot more than I do on a ball field. I don't know that I need the BIG game, I think I've done enough of those. I do, however, want to be part of a game where good ball is played - and all "local" games (within my district) are much more of a recreation level of play. So I travel and work the best games I can - some of that is ASA, some of that is ISC, and the rest are under another sanctioning body. If there were a lot of quality ball in my area, I'd be content to stay local - but there isn't. The same district commissioner who doesn't care to send any umpires to a national thinks that recreation level ball is the only level he wants to run tournaments for.

Read above, and you will know what I am talking about. Can't speak for the others, but it has really cost me this year.

The only local ball is rec league stuff, and while I have helped train these umpires year after year, it is not what I want to work.

Exactly!!!

Scott, I do know where you are coming from, trust me. I just get tired of umpires saying they would do it for free, or the money doesn't matter. Of course it does, you even admit you need the money to keep up with equipment, gas, etc... Would you do it for free, no compensation at all? I imagine the answer is no. So the money is part of the reason for doing it. If you would do it for totally nothing then I suggest you see a doctor :D

I love the game and I love umping the game. Am I in it for the money, partly. Take the money out of it would I do it, absolutely not!

And if your UIC told you that he had a National for you to work, but couldn't help you out financially, you would say, "No thanks, I've got a big co-ed tournament this week for $25 a game".

If there were no game fees, no travel expenses (assuming out of town), no hotel paid for (assuming out of town) you're right, I would say "no, but thank you". I'm sure most umpires would say the same.

I think as independent contractors, umpires are free to roam where they may, putting to work the training they pay and work for as they see fit.

I think an organization that hires umpires can set their criteria... and it is perfectly reasonable to set criteria for assignment which could/should include loyalty.

i.e. If you are primarily an NSA umpire who leaves an ASA assigner hanging week after week for the "regular tournaments", but a cool 18G ASA NQ rolls in, so suddenly you call up and are available .. well if would be perfectly fine for that assigner to put you at the bottom of the list or even black ball you. Yeah, we may use you.. at 12U. Theres your assignment pal, enjoy it.

I think its fair for both sides to operate in this manner, that is the nature of independent contracting, and one has a choice they can make with the understanding that loyalty to an organization is a perfectly valid criteria for evaluation of an umpire as a whole in regards to assignments.

I agree. I enjoy the umpiring. I will and have done it for nothing. I don't
live close to any of the games I call. Wanting the big game, they all are
big games.

Absolutely. Once I discovered the number of games worked and per game fee that ASA pays at it's nationals.

The notion that an umpire should be so "honored" to receive an assignment that they work at a reduced rate is somewhat insulting in that it suggests some sort of favor has been done to the official. Try that approach with your mechanic or accountant some time. Umpires provide a service and should be compensated accordingly based on the value of that service. "Bigger" games should pay those umpires whose abilities merit such assignments better than lesser games. This has not been ASA's philosophy in the past. This, and the discouragingly poor level of many of the umpires at the nationals I've attended as a fan, is why I have never accepted the "honor" of an ASA national assignment. I can make more money and enjoy working with more competent officials at a local tournament.

I, like many on this board, have invested a lot of time, effort, and money to get my game to a level where I can be considered for the types of assignments I dreamed of when I started. Yes, I'm proud when considered for these assignments, but don't feel I should be any more honored to work a game than the participants are to have me work it.

That's too bad. If it were cost-prohibitive, I would understand why they would have to turn it down. I believe many championship-caliber umpires would try to find a way, but not just dismiss the possibility because they weren't going to make any money or might cost them airfare.

I think you make good points but you do gloss over one aspect of umpiring..

First, yes its money. But its also a passion and hobby we love. As much as I wish it could be my job and career, it will never be. So it is what it is, something I love to do.

If it is a goal of an umpire to go higher; the pursuit of the higher levels of our hobby and passion requires resume building. Just like schools you attend where you actually pay to go; nationals is not all about "honor" of getting the assignment, but for resume building for future assignments.

Do you want to do a womens or mens major or other highest level ball there is or are you satisfied with a Utrip world series?

Is it your concern to make more money working beer league for a week or a national?

If your goal is beer league for a week because you make more, I'm fine with that. The community needs that type of umpire.

Understand others may not be so concerned with the short term "loss" of 18-20 per game for a national because the pay off is either later or a different type of reward.

Your are correct if you are building a resume' for future assignments withn ASA or ISF. I have not found that my ASA nationals resume', or lack thereof, has affected any of my regular or post season assingments at the collegate level.

It's really about each official's individual goals.

I am certainly not the only official I know with this opinion and feel that ASA could attract more high level officials who, while they work ASA ball, aren't necessarily motivated by the "honor" of working or moving up within ASA if the compensation were more in line with the importance of the games.

It would be cost prohibitive for me to go and do it for free with no reimbursement. If it were local that would be a different story. Truly we do them, National games, for pretty much free as it is right now!

I'm not in it to make a fortune. I am in it to make a little money and do something I enjoy and work hard to get better at. Umpiring has become a passion and a hobby for me. But I'm not going to do it and lose money (part of reason I quit college umpiring).

I just think those that come out and say I'm not in it for the money are trying make a self-serving statement that isn't true. Take the money out of it (umpiring) and no one would do it....and that's the truth whether or not you agree with it or not.

Depends on travel distance to the ASA National and how many games I would be assigned to work. I've been at ASA National's in the past where they wanted you to report at 8:00 AM with a last game of the day at 9:30 PM and only be scheduled to work four games during that time period at between $18.00 - $25.00 per game.

Usually with NSA or PONY tournaments, I'm assigned six or seven games per day (working two games and one game off) with payment between $35.00 - $40.00 per game. Sometimes NSA will also kick in a travel fee.

And why should it? They are not the same organization.

very true.

I'm not so sure ASA needs that official. For what? Many college umpires are more impressed with themselves than they are impressive on the field.

Some are good, some are not. I dont think the college umpires that begrudgingly come slithering to ASA when they run out of NCAA assignments then whimper all day about how per diem is better in NCAA than a whole days worth of games in ASA, bore us with lame war stories, while doing a half assed poor job, because its not NCAA, hold very much value to ASA.

I would put them at the bottom of any list of umpire. They are the worst to work around.

Then there are the other type of umpires. Those that put umpiring first. They transition easily between NCAA and ASA and excel at both. They are teachers and good umpires. You can learn a lot from them.

It is about choice, and I respect that. The first type - "NCAA come to ASA and whine" can simply go away. No hard feelings, ASA was here before them and will be here after they. They are not needed.

Wow! Sorry to here about the college guys in your area. This is not the case in my area. Except the part about the lame war stories. Although I hear just as many youth ball stories as college stories so I guess ASA only guys can be just as boring / annoying as those that call both.

you worked a national where you worked 4 games in a day?

Wow, consider yourself lucky! :)

Comparing ASA nationals to tournaments is apples and oranges. My ASA tournament this weekend I worked 7 games sat, 5 game sun, with motel sat night.

You're asking ME to wake up and smell the cost of living? Oh, if you only knew. Since August of 2006 I have not been able to work more than five hours a day at my "real" job due to health reasons. Since April 1, I have been unable to work my "real" job at all. I am not going to get into all the reasons why, but that is beside the point.

Oh, that other waking up and smelling the cost of living? Medical expenses, including visiting up to four different makes of doctors every month and getting the prescriptions, costs about $1,000 a month. It would cost more, but my wife has decent insurance. Also I have chosen to ignore a couple of health concerns which I really shouldn't ignore, but life is made of choices. Ignoring them will very likely shorten my life, but, hey, just think what a difference slowly dying makes on the cost of living!

Obviously loyalty doesn't mean as much to you as it does to me and many others. If that is a "fault" in your eyes, I feel sorry for you. If you are in it for the money, please quit now and go cook fries at McDonalds, work at 7-11 or something else. You will make far more money (net profit) at Mickey D's than you ever will umpiring. You might not make as many friends for life at Mickey D's, but, heck, you'll be much better off in regards to the cost of living.

Oh, and that week's vacation to work a national for $18 a game? Well, I was supposed to go to Illinois in 2007 for a week's vacation and get that $18 a game, but things just didn't work out. However, I'd do it in a heartbeat -- and Thank God there are thousands of others who feel the very same.

I'm truly sorry to hear about your health issues and hope that things improve for you.

The assumption that loyalty doesn't mean much to me because my loyalty doesn't lie with ASA or any other association is a bad one. I base mine on personal relationships and reciprocation. The leadership of ASA in this area on both the officiating and non-officiating side do very little to earn that loyalty. They, like wadeintothem, seem to have an obvious disdain for those who have chosen to move into college ball even though they cut their teeth working ASA leagues, qualifiers, Metro tournaments, etc. Loyalty is a two way street.

My problem is not with those umpires who decide to be exclusive to ASA and work for whatever price ASA deems fair. That's their business. It's with those who criticize others who, for whatever reason, decide not to.

Interesting discussion. I, like many others here, (that I dont know), officiate sports year round--because of passion for this hobby.

However, I'm amused at those that proudly boast a superior attitude by saying "get out, if you're doing it for the $$". Who's to say someone in it for the $ isnt a good official? Any examples given can surely be offset by others. Money motivations for doing anything doesnt equate to lack of ability.

I can honestly say 2 things:
1) while officiating varsity baseball, football, basketball, softball, I have never asked a partner if they're only in it for the money(if I'm the norm, how would one judge anothers issue of $ vs passion?).
2)We've all worked w/officials that we perceived better or worse than us (usually only remember the worse, lol, maybe a subconscience pat on my back?)
Should I judge the good as PASSION, and the bad as $$ only motivated? I think not.-- i.e. A $1M/yr income lawyer that is very good, but does it for his lifestyle, cars, homes, ect....

I think the issue people have with those who are in it for the money is that it often clearly reflects in their performance. They show up right before gametime, and they're the first ones in the parking lot after the game. They settle for "that's good enough," and don't prioritize anything having to do with improvement. It's apparent to everyone that they don't care, and frankly... they don't care about that, either! It reflects poorly upon the individual umpire, as well as the rest of the crew.

Not everyone who's in it for the money falls into this category, but most do. If that's an umpire's agenda, fine. Just don't make it so obvious. You're dragging the rest of us down.

Hey, I dont have a disdain for NCAA at all, in fact, I'd switch careers at even a little less money if it would allow me to work NCAA; my job does not allow me to work NCAA, and that sucks. Furthermore, I am of the opinion NCAA mechanics are superior to ASA by a lot. So you misrepresent my position.

I was discussing the NCAA type umpires who sit around sniveling about money all the time while they begrudgingly work ASA games. There arent many like that, most are great to be around, but that type is around....

Yes they are. (sarcasm alert) By the way, did I tell you about the games I worked last night for $25.00 a apiece? That is ridiculous. I mean, I am used to getting per diem, plus 75.00 a game and seeing higher caliber play all at the same time. What are these rec league people thinking. Did I tell you the one about the time that I was working these two DII schools and....... :D

Well I think this is an interesting discussion. I see all sides of this argument, I mean discussion. I agree everyone enjoys receiving their game fees for doing their job. And it is a “requirement” for most to be able to do this hobby that we love so much. I however make a distinction between “doing it for the money” and getting paid to do something I enjoy. “Doing it for the money” is what I do all day to pay my bills at home, I enjoy a lot of my “real” job, but not most of it. I enjoy most of umpiring, but not all of it. I get up everyday and go to work to put food on the table, I umpire to keep myself sane. Ya I use the money for extras, right now I’m remodeling a bathroom with the games fees from this spring. BUT the money is secondary to me, I do it cause I love it. By the way the wife can’t understand why I can get up ½ hour early to get to a softball tourney on time on Saturday, but smack the snooze button 15 times during the work week….hum, lets see….I enjoy umpiring, I have to go to work? Seems to make sense to me!!

I think that is the difference, I have seen several different flavors of umpires but the two extreme I see this way:
1) In it for the money, doesn’t attend any schools, keeps only bare minimum requirements (license valid) so they can call ball. Gets there late, looks terrible(worn out equipment) and doesn’t really seem to care about getting things right just getting the game over.
2) The opposite, cares about doing everything to their greatest ability always willing to learn, spends lots of $$ on training and time on studying mechanics and rules knowledge. Piles the checks up until there is too many to carry / stuff in the drawer then cashes them in and either pays off a bill, or buys something for the family.


About the loyalty issue I agree with both sides. I think you have to decide what is important to you. Is it to work an ASA national tournament? If it is then you need to build that resume that will allow you to do that. If it is to make as much money as you can in the year, then ya take the XYZ games that weekend you probably will make more money. I personally have no issue with either one, but chose a path and don’t ***** about being able to have gone down the other one. You know ASA pays $XX a game, you know you could have made $YY a game calling XYZ ball. Get over it you made a decision live with it.

And about NCAA umpires, I know several and some are very good. Some are better than me, some aren’t. Just cause you call college ball doesn't mean you “walk on water”. Could I make it calling college ball? I don’t know, probably will never know….I have a job that won’t allow me to take off the time necessary to find out. But I really don’t like the idea that I am a subpar umpire simply because I don’t call college ball. I work just as hard to get my skills better and I am doing ok, ya some are better that's ok gives me something to work toward but look at the skills not just what they do in another organization.

Someone mentioned something about passion for the game, I guess bottom line IMO as long as you have passion for the game, which to me means you strive to be the best at your job of umpiring and you follow your vision to get to your goal (ASA national championship, NCAA Super Regional, Olympics, maximize income) and you don’t whine about where you are vs where you could be then I have no issue with you.

NCASA, I'm assuming that you already know, that I agree with what you say. My point was to those here that use that "quit if money only" comment as a defense against those that disagree with them.

Though all of us have different skill levels, I'd also like to assume 2 more things;
1) any official that spends their free time on this or other similar site, has the passion and desire to improve their craft.
2) those officials that you describe above, that reflect poorly on the rest of us, probably dont visit and learn from these sites...

I.E. Some of us need that "thick skin" more often, off the diamond/field/court.......

I'd definitely agree with those two assumptions, with the qualification of "if they're here and not trolling." :D

Trolling aside, I have no problem if someone is in it for the money. Just don't drag me down with you. Though I guess that's true for the motivations of any umpire I call with. If their motivations do not exert a positive influence in how they handle the game, then I don't want to be around them when the sh1t hits the fan.

I don't have any problem with people who get in umpiring for the money either. That said, like any other job one gets into for the money, whether flipping burgers at McDonalds, working at a Staples, security guard, convenience store clerk, military, usher at a stadium/arena, whatever, a person should wear the prescribed uniform/garments, perform all tasks as instructed and act in a professional manner.

My problem aren't necessarily with those who umpire for whatever reason, at least have and demonstrate the appropriate amount pride in your performance and appearance. One wouldn't last long at other "positions" for money, why does anyone believe this should be different?

A little pet peeve I have are sports officials who are prim and proper in one sport, but are lazy and messy in their mannerisms and dress in another sport. I see that all the time. And the kicker is, if someone worked their primary sport as a secondary and showed up late in a sloppy uniform and was lazy in executing their mechanics, these same folks would be the first to attack their lack of respect for THEIR sport.

Tonight, we just had an umpire bail out and leave another umpire by himself because he didn't want to call in the rain. This umpire does nothing but complain that we're not getting paid enough ($18/game for SP), and his demeanor on the field makes it quite obvious that he's only in it for the money.

I got the message late, and if I'd gotten it earlier, I would've gone to the field to help a fellow blue out. But since the 2nd of 3 games is winding down, I'm on standby in case the umpires on the other fields don't chip in and help him out. Thankfully, I'm only 10 minutes away. Yes, I'd drive over there to call the last 45 minutes of a game. If it helps a good fellow umpire out and helps to preserve the integrity of our crew, damaged as it is by this other umpire's selfishness, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Hands down.

What kicks me in the rear is that I had thought of going to that park after my assigned field got cancelled, just in case something like this might happen. I decided against it, figuring, "what're the odds?" DOH!

I'm sorry you feel I have a superior attitude. Moreover, my shrink is very amused by the comment. I agree: money motivations for doing anything don't equal lack of ability.

My experience here and in other places has been that many times folks who are motivated by the bucks are only motivated by the bucks. We all have different goals. One of my major goals is to improve while helping others improve. For the most part, folks in it for the bucks don't give back to others or the organization. (Not 100% true, but ...)

I could go on and on...but please don't play the superior attitude card. If anything I focus too much on how much I suck...

The second sentence seems to contradict the first.

There hase been alot of mention of "in it for the money" in this thread. I don't think anyone said they were in it for the money. What I tried to say (albeit poorly I guess) is when possible, let the pay reflect the level of the crew and the importance of the game.

A frustrating part about what we do is that, at many tournaments, you can have one field being covered by umpires who work hard to do things the right way and on the next field over, you have some who could care less about how they do things. The sad fact is that they all make the same pay. I realize that little can be done about this situation, but when making assignments based on merit,like ASA Nationals, when each official has earned his/her spot, why not reward these high performers with a little more in their wallets. I certianly can't understand paying them less than what they make on a weekly basis.

Not at all. I don't have a problem if someone is in it just for the extra cash. Just show a little integrity by not making it so blatantly obvious that it ends up reflecting poorly on the whole group.

The concept that is sometimes forgotten is that good or bad, wherever we go, we're judged as a group. If one member gets out of line, then the whole group has to deal with the problem. If an umpire fails to show or leaves early (such as the case I mentioned last night), it makes us ALL look bad.

The irony is that the ones in our crew who make us look bad are the first ones to complain about the low pay, yet it's their actions that make things difficult when trying to negotiate better contracts.

now thats funny, lol, no sarcasm intended

And my point is that its almost impossible to judge ones actions(or lack of) and then say "They're only in for the $$".

We all can come up with examples of those that "fit the bill", but without knowing them, their motivations, why they officiate, their officiating experience and education, then any comments about them is just an assumption(and we know what that means, right?)

I know of officials who would probably work for free (enjoy the power, maybe?), but are slobs, have poor mechanics, ect. I also know others who are very good, I'm happy to work with them, but loudly complain off field about pay, # of mtgs to attend, ect.

Oh, and I initially disagreed w/ anothers comment about this posts topic, so dont think I'm "dragging you down there with me". I'm not down there!

The people I had in mind have flat out said to me, "I'm in it for the money." Verbatim. And it's these individuals who screw it up for the rest of us. Coincidence? Not at all.

Wasn't directed at you. :)

Blechh. At least they're honest about it. Just keep them away from me because I think some of them work in my area too.