Kind of a funny steal situation
 

I'm BU at 18G last weekend. There is a steal and I'm in great position for the play. The throw beats the girl by a lot (apparently the runner slowed up).. the glove w/ ball was down waiting for the girl.. and the girl slides directly into the glove.. but wait.

My mind thinks "the tag missed her! wtf?!?! how the heck did she do that?". The glove kind of appeared to miss her by less than an inch.. but did it?!?!

I'm on a 90 behind 2b, the play, F6 is tagging in front of the runner.... my mind is kind of fizzling because despite the obviousness of the can of corn tag play.. my brain thinks it might have saw a safe.. so obviously, I do what any good umpire would do, I sell it out. I mean, it has to be an out right? she slid right into the glove.. it coudnt have missed.

I think all is well.

The girl gets up and starts saying "she totally missed me" and gesturing at her coach. She goes to the dug out. Now I'm thinking.. oh crap, she really did miss her! Some miracle safe. No one else says a word except good throw, etc to the catcher.

We go on with life and Soon the inning ends, I'm near their dugout at 1B.. and here comes the coach from the 3B box yelling into his dugout.

He starts mocking her about how she runs slowly, gets thrown out by 10 feet, slides right into a tag, and dares to suggest she was safe. He goes on and on verbally beating her in a nice coach way for a few minutes.

It was kind of funny.. but I think I blew that one... I dont know how I would have explained in any decent manner a safe call.. but I think she may have been telling the truth. :D Only me and her know, thats for sure... cuz no one else saw that.

Hey, real simple. "Coach, she missed the tag". :D

I've had plays where the runner slides, reaches over the glove and touches the base before making contact with the glove during the slide. Everyone is watching the ball beat the runner to the base, the fielder lay the glove in front of the bag and don't understand my safe call.

Chat with DC goes something like this:

DC: Safe? How can she be safe? You had to see her slide into the tag!

Me: Yes the runner is safe. She's safe because the runner reached over your fielder’s glove that was in front of the bag and tagged the base. You're right coach, I did see the runner slide into the tag. Right after the runner reached over the glove and grabbed the base, she slid into the glove.

Sounds like a Wall Street moment. You sell, sell, sell and hope they buy, buy, buy!

Whether the runner was tagged, or not, the vicinity out call lives on and is accepted by many as a fact of second base.
With the glove waiting for so long, the big sell isn't even necessary, cuz it "should not have been close".

You been hanging out them baseball boys upstairs again mick? :D

A play like this you would lose credibility on both sides because both sides saw the out.

But the official forum softball umpire stands firm.. and calls the safe and stalls the game and argues with coaches and stutters and puts around and gets called stupid by both sides of the stands... One side patting the other side on the back "hey he screwed ya outta that one, sorry".

Lucky for me I'm not smart or quick like these guys or I woulda been in a lotta trouble instead of that runner... ;)

How True
 

So Typical - Cannot tell you how many times I have Called Safe on various missed tags, and had an earful from coaches.

Yes, indeed! That's a funny happenstance of the same rule in different games. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/fr...smiley-013.gif
Maybe it's because baseball games are so long.

Not necessarily. How many times have you heard, "doesn't she have to make the tag?"

There was a good one in the Phillies-Braves game Monday. Play at the plate, ball beat the runner by three strides. Runner when down low and the catcher did not get the tag down quick enough and when he did, the runner was already on the plate. Ball beat the runner, so I'm sure there were a bundle of people out there saying, "boy, he blew that one. The ball beat him by a mile." That is until the replay shows the late tag, the umpire pointing at the plate making some goofy-assed motion and coming up with the a big "SAFE".

Yeah, Bobby Cox came out and probably said, "How can he be safe, the ball beat him by a mile?" :D

I will hold the umpire who makes a tough call correct and accuratly, no matter how unpopular it is, in higher esteem than I will the "go along to get along" umpire.

If all the calls were obvious, they wouldn't need umpires. The reason we are on the field is to make the decisions on the tough plays where the outcome isn't so obvious that the drunk in the centerfield bleachers could make it.

Yeah that could be it. You cant let an out sneak away during a 3.5 hour game... :D

I agree, you gotta make the tough call.. I'll be ready next time..

Sung to the tune of "if a tree falls in the forest.."

If you make the tough call and no one else on earth knows it was the tough call.. did you really make the tough call or just blow one?

...Or maybe it's a safety issue, in baseball, to prevent the middle infielder from getting a hand ripped up. The same play occurs on a force out where the fielder doesn't have the bag and the ball at the same time.

Hang on! I'm not disagreeing with your call. How often have you heard, "if you have to think about it, it isn't"?

I'm just talking to your concern about the reactions if you made a call of which that only you and the participants are aware of the fact. A lot of times when such a play happens, everyone argues, but the player involved. There's a case where silence is a telltale sign.

If you see something unexpected and are sure of it, a good step toward the play with a point to the general area with a strong "NO....NO TAG! SAFE!" with signal works great.

I had this same sit at my National Championships about 4 years ago. 18 & u girls. I was the 3rd base ump in 3 man crew with R1 on 1st so I was over in the 2nd base position. Host team just happens to be the team on defense, also occupying 3rd dugout. So 90 % of spectators are cheering for you know who.
R1 takes off to steel 2nd but F2 has a wicked arm and throws to F6 who is covering 2nd. She has received the ball about 6" above the groundabout a step towards 1st right on the base path. Ball arrived just as R1 was just starting to go into her slide so you can imagine how much time there was.
Problem was as F6 held her glove expexting R1 to slide into it, R1 slid towards outfeild side of bag so as she went by the glove I was in perfect place to see that there was about 2" between glove and R1. I'm still waiting for tag.:o I come up selling SAFE. In fact I over sold it, pulled a little muscle in shoulder but that's a different story. Out comes both DCs but my base partner intercepted one for me, but the head coach came straight at me. I let him have his say then I calmly stated she missed the tag.
"There was no tag coach." WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO TAG. Coach she didnot tag her, I was in perfect position to see. WELL WHY DON"T YOU ASK FOR HELP. Coach I saw the ply and I'm 100% positive that there was no tag.
This went on for a few minutes so I finally had to tell that enough etc.
So off he struts back to his 3rd base dugout and somehow I knew it was not over. And of course the crowd is just going bonkers.
Well next half inning guess who is coaching 3rd, and up till then he stuck to the bench. Just as the pitcher was finish her warm ups and we break from our holding positions I start hearing this low mumble about calls, asking for help, judgement. all low so I ignore it. Well as the inning went on, it got louder and he ejected himself. I just directed which gate he should use. Of course I heard it from the crowd the remainder of the game, we even had to have minor assistance to get to the golf cart that was driving us back & forth from the dressing room to the diamonds.
And you're right, F6 never said a word.

What you see is what you call, especially not guessing an out.

As Mike said, we are there for the non-obvious. If it's tough or what no one expects, SELL it harder and be more patient with the coach (within limits of course).
I have to live with myself, not the jerk in the stands, not the coach who is 100 feet away with a bad angle, not even the runner who is called out or the fielder who didn't get an out.

OK- Vicinity Call
 

This thread reminded me of a similar issue that falls into the vicinity call category.

Situation: bases loaded, force at home on an easy infield grounder. Ball routinely fielded and thrown to F2 for force out at home. F2 is not standing on the plate; for her foot that is closest to home plate, the heel is about 2 inches forward of the plate. She makes the catch and immediately throws the ball to make another play. She never makes contact with the plate nor does she ever come any closer to it than she was when she made the catch. Do you call safe or out?

Safe. Whether it be one of my baseball or softball games.

I'm sure many of the officials on this board were taught early on as I was that:

1) If you don't see an out, the call is safe.

and

2) You need to be able to explain every call you make.

It's hard to get into too much trouble when these 2 guidelines are followed.

I'd make an off the bag signal first. It'll help to sell it.
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A what? :eek:

Seriously, what is that?

Point at the bag and yell, "Off the bag!!!"
or
Hold your palms apart and to the side [e.g., on your left] and push them to your other side [e.g.,your right] . (Picture a defensive football player shedding a blocker to the side)

Here's where you and I, I think, would agree, Irish. I am not likely to signal anything but safe. If a coach needs to know why I made the call I made, I have no problem explaining it to him/her afterward. If others wish to explain their call while making their call, that's okay too, but it's not part of my game.

That's the way I was taught and it seems nice enough. I don't know any reason not to. It's in the book that way too. Says make the explanation call first orit will look like you're making an excuse.
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Those are the signals. I'd think the first one fits better here. The second one is more for a pulled foot.
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The fact is, the runner is safe. I think the idea that a coach is less likely to come out and question a call based on how the call is made in this instance is, in reality, a bit of a stretch. Like I stated, if you wish to make this a part of your game, that's great. I have not found it to be all that beneficial.

Which association?

Is the right call is always the correct call? Are you really sure of what you saw? Maybe you should work on that....

I've been there THIS year...screwing up a HS play off game with the correct IP call, that was the wrong call, and getting led off the field. Correct call... but the wrong call.

Oh no it wasn't. Guaranteed Tim and I didn't teach that one. What page is that mechanic on?

I have absolutely no problem with the MECHANIC (not a signal) of pointing to the play, announcing what you saw and then making the appropriate call with corresponding signal.

However, if you are going to raise both arms and make a sweeping motion away from the play, IMO, you should be on a football field.

Not only did you both teach me that one, Randy gave me a suggestion to use it more in mechanics practice at the gym with both of you watching.

As for where it is, I don't have my 08 rulebook within reach, but it's on page 233 in the 07 book.

To be clear though, Mick's second signal is not a correct mechanic. Only the first one which is the one you taught. Though I don't imagine it'd cause any actual confusion were I to use it, I suppose I'll have to focus on clearing it out of my repertoire.

I guarantee you that no one is referring to the "point".

You are correct, no one would be confused. There may, however, be a few who would consider this showboating for an umpire.

Well, what am I chopped liver? I was referring to the point. Though not entirely as I kind of lumped all those techniques together. (Which is the cause of my lack of adroitness in describing this. In my defense, it's definitely the one in the OP.)

So am I safe in understanding that no one cares if I give the point-off-the-bag signal? I definitely don't want to blame SRW for teaching anything but the point. I have however seen many umpires make more demonstrative signals and personally I think it makes the sell a little easier. Doesn't all selling look like showboating?

Is there anybody who thinks that the demonstrative signal is better?
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Since I was referencing YOUR post and subsequent responses, I didn't think it would be necessary to exclude you from my statement. Apparently, I was mistaken.

I don't believe anyone else was as that is a standard MECHANIC, not a SIGNAL.

Look at it this way. Do you sell ball calls with demonstrative signals to make it "easier"? Do you sell a foul ball with the demonstrative signals to make it is "easier"? Trust me, you can make all the movements you want, if someone disagrees with you, that "signal" isn't going to make anything different or easier.

How about we actually call what happened? No tag means safe, unless your in CA for a gold tourney?