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CajunNewBlue Thu Sep 25, 2008 07:45am

First college level game...
 
I am doing my first college level game (double header this weekend) and strangely, I am not too nervous. (I must be forgetting something...lol)

Any advice?

azbigdawg Thu Sep 25, 2008 07:55am

Its a piece of cake.... one pitch at a time, If you've been doing club ball for any length of time, you've probably done better games than you will see at the J.C. Div III or Div II level...

NCASAUmp Thu Sep 25, 2008 07:57am

Advice? None.

Congrats, though! I do have plenty of congrats for you. :)

CajunNewBlue Thu Sep 25, 2008 08:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by azbigdawg (Post 539178)
Its a piece of cake.... one pitch at a time, If you've been doing club ball for any length of time, you've probably done better games than you will see at the J.C. Div III or Div II level...


I hope its good ball ... its a Div I school. I actually have never seen the team play before .. but I've worked their fund raising tournament before. ;)

Skahtboi Thu Sep 25, 2008 08:39am

It's fall ball. Relax, and enjoy. Are you working a three man crew? If so, there are some practices allowed in NCAA (such as rimming), that aren't traditionally accepted mechanics in ASA.

CajunNewBlue Thu Sep 25, 2008 09:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skahtboi (Post 539187)
It's fall ball. Relax, and enjoy. Are you working a three man crew? If so, there are some practices allowed in NCAA (such as rimming), that aren't traditionally accepted mechanics in ASA.

yep, three man... and "rimming" is that a after game locker room thing? :rolleyes:

NCASAUmp Thu Sep 25, 2008 09:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue (Post 539199)
yep, three man... and "rimming" is that a after game locker room thing? :rolleyes:

I think I threw up a little in my mouth.

Skahtboi Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 539202)
I think I threw up a little in my mouth.

I know I did.

To rim, (rimming) is where the umpire stays outside the diamond even though the ball is hit to the outfield. For example, with no runners on, a ball is hit to left field. U3 chases. Rather than come inside the diamond, U1 stays outside, watches as the runner touches first and then, while still outside the diamond, takes the runner to second. This keeps all the elements of a possible play at second in front of him; the ball, the runner, the base to which a pending play may be developing, and the fielder who possibly will be making the play.

CajunNewBlue Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skahtboi (Post 539218)
I know I did.

To rim, (rimming) is where the umpire stays outside the diamond even though the ball is hit to the outfield. For example, with no runners on, a ball is hit to left field. U3 chases. Rather than come inside the diamond, U1 stays outside, watches as the runner touches first and then, while still outside the diamond, takes the runner to second. This keeps all the elements of a possible play at second in front of him; the ball, the runner, the base to which a pending play may be developing, and the fielder who possibly will be making the play.

yes, sir. Been working on my rimming (lol... I hate that term) mechanics all this summer... even do it while in 2-man mechanic mode (on a clean shot to the out field) as I have been told to by other umpires like whiskers and a few others... wish FED and ASA would make this their standard.

whiskers_ump Thu Sep 25, 2008 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue (Post 539177)
I am doing my first college level game (double header this weekend) and strangely, I am not too nervous. (I must be forgetting something...lol)

Any advice?


Alright Steven. I know you will have no problems. Who you working with and
what teams involved?

Just have fun.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Sep 25, 2008 01:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skahtboi (Post 539218)
I know I did.

To rim, (rimming) is where the umpire stays outside the diamond even though the ball is hit to the outfield. For example, with no runners on, a ball is hit to left field. U3 chases. Rather than come inside the diamond, U1 stays outside, watches as the runner touches first and then, while still outside the diamond, takes the runner to second. This keeps all the elements of a possible play at second in front of him; the ball, the runner, the base to which a pending play may be developing, and the fielder who possibly will be making the play.

Okay, now you started it.

This mechanic provides no more advantage in this situation than a button-hook does. That is, unless you cheat on your button-hook.

AtlUmpSteve Thu Sep 25, 2008 01:48pm

My opinion is that NCAA rimming has one advantage, always; it is easier physically than pushing the buttonhook. It also has one advantage, sometimes; if U3 doesn't chase and covers 2nd, any possible play between 1st and 2nd is automatically bracketed.

Rimming has one potential weakness; when U3 chases, if there is an overthrow at 2nd, U1 is behind a possible play at 3rd, and this results in either 1) a call from behind at 3rd, or 2) PU to take a potential play at 3rd that should routinely belong to U1. Sure, that can be overcome, but it requires an adjustment to standards by the umpires.

We could argue forever which is a better mechanic; bottom line is simply that ASA and NCAA have differing philosophies on mechanics for very good reasons. The ASA philosophy is to create basic rules that apply to the vast majority of situations, to minimize conditional exceptions, because the vast and overwhelming numbers of umpires calling that program need the absolutes of KISS, "KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID". The inside-outside theory without exceptions covers that situation.

The NCAA philosophy is to create or enable a much smaller and greatly more experienced group of higher level umpires to utilize a flexible set of mechanics that allow and even mandate exceptions to almost every general rule, to create specific mechanics that are "best" for each and every situation, and presume that each and every umpire in the program is fully capable (and will, in every case) to adapt and adjust to any variation.

Again, each progam has good and valid reasons for their approach. I, for one, simply refuse to say that either is better for all. Each is better suited to their own program, IMO.

And, this argument is no better than sniping about a philosophical difference to publicly publish on the internet a (NCAA) rulebook that no one would plagiarize (there is no one out there that I have ever met or heard of that wants to use college specific rules that isn't an affiliated member of NCAA already) versus not making internet available another (ASA) rulebook that would be (and is) regularly plagiarized or otherwise stolen without permission by literally thousands of teams, leagues, and tournaments, that simply play "ASA Rules", yet choose to not register their team, league, or tournament, unless forced to do so. Clearly different business models, clearly each has good reasons for doing it how they do it. Both are right, IMO, for doing it their way.

CajunNewBlue Thu Sep 25, 2008 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump (Post 539268)
Alright Steven. I know you will have no problems. Who you working with and
what teams involved?

Just have fun.

working with wayne and tori.... mcneese and texas a&m?? (i know for sure its mcneese..lol as its at their field) gene's cell phone cut out and you know how i hate asking twice. will find out later tonight when i call wayne.. and thanks for the confidence.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Sep 25, 2008 04:00pm

I agree with Steve's assessment of the mechanic. However, I do not agree with this comment:
Quote:

more experienced group of higher level umpires
I've seen some "college" umpires that aren't worth a $hit, period. I've seen HS umpires that are even worse. I've also seen HS umpires that could do great at the collegiate level. I've seen ASA umpires that could do great at both the HS & NCAA level.

Like in baseball, the fact that someone has attained a certain level does not make them the best/more experience or higher than the next guy/gal. It simply means they are the best/more experienced available.

Quote:

And, this argument is no better than sniping about a philosophical difference to publicly publish on the internet a (NCAA) rulebook that no one would plagiarize (there is no one out there that I have ever met or heard of that wants to use college specific rules that isn't an affiliated member of NCAA already) versus not making internet available another (ASA) rulebook that would be (and is) regularly plagiarized or otherwise stolen without permission by literally thousands of teams, leagues, and tournaments, that simply play "ASA Rules", yet choose to not register their team, league, or tournament, unless forced to do so. Clearly different business models, clearly each has good reasons for doing it how they do it. Both are right, IMO, for doing it their way.
And there is one thing that some do not realize. ASA considers the rule book part of the package teams and umpires get for their registration.

The NCAA does not have an umpire's association and I doubt they register the coach/team as an independent entity. They are a conglomerate of educational institutions banded together for the benefit and coordination of athletic programs.

Yes, other organizations offer their rules on line and they have every right to do so. I would think it all depends on each organization's philosophy and priority. And that is each organization's right and privilege.

DNTXUM P Thu Sep 25, 2008 04:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue (Post 539199)
yep, three man... and "rimming" is that a after game locker room thing? :rolleyes:

depends on who you are working with. If it is any of the boys from Lafayette, then yes they do a lot of rimming after the game, especially if my buddy JM is around

Dutch Alex Thu Sep 25, 2008 05:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNTXUM P (Post 539330)
depends on who you are working with. If it is any of the boys from Lafayette, then yes they do a lot of rimming after the game, especially if my buddy JM is around

I truely hope (and believe) you have only "hear saying" experinced this? Didn't actually see, nor actively joined in?:p

CajunNewBlue Thu Sep 25, 2008 06:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Alex (Post 539341)
I truely hope (and believe) you have only "hear saying" experinced this? Didn't actually see, nor actively joined in?:p


as compared to inactively joining in? :eek:

CajunNewBlue Thu Sep 25, 2008 07:00pm

Ack... game got cancelled... something about one school not being NCAA "compliant" ....dangit :(

Dutch Alex Thu Sep 25, 2008 07:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue (Post 539353)
as compared to inactively joining in? :eek:

I can't imagine what action that would be.
Don't forget, english is my second foreign langue AND i'm working the nightshift right now. I'm not that clear as I wished I should be. But I think I've got the message...

Hopefully tonight (at 20:30h) I'm well awake. Working as U3 in the first semi-final dutch national championship ladies competition..

whiskers_ump Thu Sep 25, 2008 07:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue (Post 539354)
Ack... game got cancelled... something about one school not being NCAA "compliant" ....dangit :(

Well saves you all the saddle sores, what with Wayne and Tori.

J/K, both good officials at all levels.

wadeintothem Thu Sep 25, 2008 07:49pm

My first college tourney is next weekend!

Because of my work schedule I cannot work NCAA ball, so this should be fun. I got the invite from my gold work. A fall ball NCAA tourney!

I'll be working this one at Arnaiz
http://pacifictigers.cstv.com/sports...091008aab.html

and rotating to a concurrent gold tourney.

Should be great!

Cal bears and other good d1 teams there. I'm stoked!

DNTXUM P Thu Sep 25, 2008 08:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Alex (Post 539341)
I truely hope (and believe) you have only "hear saying" experinced this? Didn't actually see, nor actively joined in?:p

Just know from going to Lafayette and working the UL Mardi Gras tournament every Feb. Those boys in Lafayette follow JM around like ducklings following their mother duck.

Sander, your English is much better than my Dutch - as you well know. How is the family?


Larry

topper Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 539321)
I've seen some "college" umpires that aren't worth a $hit, period. I've seen HS umpires that are even worse. I've also seen HS umpires that could do great at the collegiate level. I've seen ASA umpires that could do great at both the HS & NCAA level.

No doubt that you have. But are you saying that the average ASA official's ability, experience, and level of commitment to umpiring is the same as the average college official?

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 539321)
Like in baseball, the fact that someone has attained a certain level does not make them the best/more experience or higher than the next guy/gal.

No, but it's a pretty good clue that they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 539321)
And there is one thing that some do not realize. ASA considers the rule book part of the package teams and umpires get for their registration.

$50.00 is kinda steep for a rule book.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 539321)
The NCAA does not have an umpire's association and I doubt they register the coach/team as an independent entity. They are a conglomerate of educational institutions banded together for the benefit and coordination of athletic programs.

And not having an association is a bad thing?

wadeintothem Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:56pm

College umpires come mostly from ASA. Sometimes they are the cream of the crop, sometimes they are not. I've worked with good ones and I can think of two absolutely horrible NCAA umps right off the top of my head.

College umps typically are more dedicated and better trained that an average umpire, but not always.
The college umpires system is not limited by a policy of catering to a low common denominator of ump (as ASA does) which makes for a overall better umpiring program.

In the past two years they have really thought outside the box and I think it shows. ASA is still boxed by old school umpire leadership. It wasnt too long ago NCAA umpires were the robots..they've moved on and left us watching.

But one cannot doubt that ASA is at the core of the NCAA program, that is where umpiring at any appreciable level starts. Any umpire who states otherwise is in never never land.

Some downsides are:

College is limited by who can participate just based on lifes reasons.

College Umps around here are organizing really well under the leadership of moz..but NCAA umping still requires a lot of *** kissing of coaches. I'm sure its worse where there is entirely no organization. Coaches, not umpires, truely decide your fate. That is why an organization would be nice.

socalumps Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 539321)
I agree with Steve's assessment of the mechanic. However, I do not agree with this comment:


I've seen some "college" umpires that aren't worth a $hit, period. OPINION I've seen HS umpires that are even worse. OPINION I've also seen HS umpires that could do great at the collegiate level.OPINION I've seen ASA umpires that could do great at both the HS & NCAA level.OPINION However...there are many ASA that aren't worth a $hit!!! OPINIONThat you didn't offer??

Like in baseball, the fact that someone has attained a certain level does not make them the best/more experience or higher than the next guy/gal. It simply means they are the best/more experienced available. Alot of "the best/more experienced available "umpires are not working on the spring weekends?


And there is one thing that some do not realize. ASA considers the rule book part of the package teams and umpires get for their registration. Ummm...yeh!! And you think it is a bargain? So does Amway!!

The NCAA does not have an umpire's association and I doubt they register the coach/team as an independent entity. They are a conglomerate of educational institutions banded together for the benefit and coordination of athletic programs. Kinda like companies (IBM, General Motors, Microsoft...etc... hiring the best available person to do the job they require?

Yes, other organizations offer their rules on line and they have every right to do so. I would think it all depends on each organization's philosophy and priority. And that is each organization's right and privilege.

Your right. AmWay or any other pyramid scheme can do the same?? Those at the top get a percentage of the company fees, from there it trickles down...to those who...who generate some type of registration...whether it be team..insurance...umpire...uniform..etc..?? Thats why a $3.00 rule book cost $50-$65.00?

Nothing inherently wrong with it...but lets be forthright in acknowledging it??

Steve M Fri Sep 26, 2008 03:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Alex (Post 539356)
Working as U3 in the first semi-final dutch national championship ladies competition..

congrats, Sander.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Sep 26, 2008 07:32am

It is obvious most of you have no idea what the actual registration rate for an ASA umpireis, even though it is clearly noted in the code.

And I'm not going to tell you. Look it up.

CajunNewBlue Fri Sep 26, 2008 07:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump (Post 539358)
Well saves you all the saddle sores, what with Wayne and Tori.

J/K, both good officials at all levels.


yeah.. I wont get to practice my rimming with them.... :rolleyes: ohhh well maybe next time. :)

CajunNewBlue Fri Sep 26, 2008 07:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 539395)
College umpires come mostly from ASA.

ummm, maybe because ASA is the "largest league" and has the largest pool of umpires to pull from?

CajunNewBlue Fri Sep 26, 2008 07:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 539427)
It is obvious most of you have no idea what the actual registration rate for an ASA umpireis, even though it is clearly noted in the code.

And I'm not going to tell you. Look it up.

Well I paid $50 to get my ASA card and the guys in texas have to pay $75 for theirs.
So, yes I agree with you I have no idea what the rate is.:confused:

wadeintothem Fri Sep 26, 2008 07:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 539427)
It is obvious most of you have no idea what the actual registration rate for an ASA umpireis, even though it is clearly noted in the code.

And I'm not going to tell you. Look it up.

The code is not relevent. we pay our yearly dues to our association.... ASA's take vs the association take when its divied up is another matter.

Although some of you guys are getting jacked on your dues thats for sure. WAY too much.

CajunNewBlue Fri Sep 26, 2008 08:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 539395)
College Umps around here are organizing really well under the leadership of moz..but NCAA umping still requires a lot of *** kissing of coaches. I'm sure its worse where there is entirely no organization. Coaches, not umpires, truely decide your fate. That is why an organization would be nice.

Dunno if thats such a bad thing... some of the (female) coaches are kinda hot. :rolleyes:

wadeintothem Fri Sep 26, 2008 08:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue (Post 539442)
Dunno if thats such a bad thing... some of the (female) coaches are kinda hot. :rolleyes:

And I'm sure these hot elite level college coaches who hang out on a university campus all day are very impressed with some goofy drooling umpires.... :rolleyes:

Skahtboi Fri Sep 26, 2008 08:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue (Post 539435)
Well I paid $50 to get my ASA card and the guys in texas have to pay $75 for theirs.
So, yes I agree with you I have no idea what the rate is.:confused:

We do??? I hadn't heard this. I paid a total of $45.00. $20.00 to my local association, and $25.00 to Texas ASA.

wadeintothem Fri Sep 26, 2008 08:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skahtboi (Post 539448)
We do??? I hadn't heard this. I paid a total of $45.00. $20.00 to my local association, and $25.00 to Texas ASA.

That is a lot more reasonable. I was thinking Texas really lost their mind now.

whiskers_ump Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skahtboi (Post 539448)
We do??? I hadn't heard this. I paid a total of $45.00. $20.00 to my local association, and $25.00 to Texas ASA.

In this area, we paid $63.00. Hell not even sure which got what. Not really
worried about it. Work two tournaments and it all comes back.

NCASAUmp Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:25am

In NC, we pay $65. I'm not sure where it all goes, though. Never asked, really.

topper Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 539500)
In NC, we pay $65. I'm not sure where it all goes, though. Never asked, really.

Maybe that's written in the ASA code as well. I doubt it.

CajunNewBlue Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skahtboi (Post 539448)
We do??? I hadn't heard this. I paid a total of $45.00. $20.00 to my local association, and $25.00 to Texas ASA.

thats what the guys from houston/beaumont told me this past year.

CajunNewBlue Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skahtboi (Post 539448)
We do??? I hadn't heard this. I paid a total of $45.00. $20.00 to my local association, and $25.00 to Texas ASA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump (Post 539499)
In this area, we paid $63.00. Hell not even sure which got what. Not really
worried about it. Work two tournaments and it all comes back.

Dang.... you work cheap.... I usually make $200 a tourney :p

AtlUmpSteve Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:46am

ASA gets $15 per umpire, to pay for rulebook, insurance, and sustain the National Office Umpire program. Whatever you pay in your area, the balance stays in your local association, to sustain your local programs.

We pay $45 in Georgia; part of the extra $30 goes into a travel fund that pays the travel costs of Georgia umpires to out-of-state National Tournaments. Part goes to compensate the State UIC staff, part goes to meet training and meeting expenses. Part goes to the state association general budget. I would presume that the costs in your states go toward similar expenses.

AtlUmpSteve Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CajunNewBlue (Post 539506)
thats what the guys from houston/beaumont told me this past year.

Houston ASA is a separate entity from Texas ASA.

Skahtboi Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 539514)
Houston ASA is a separate entity from Texas ASA.

Indeed it is.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 539439)
The code is not relevent. we pay our yearly dues to our association.... ASA's take vs the association take when its divied up is another matter.

It's relevant to a conversation discussing how much "ASA" charges for a book.

Quote:

Although some of you guys are getting jacked on your dues thats for sure. WAY too much.
Some do, some don't.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:07pm

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">
Quote:

However...there are many ASA that aren't worth a $hit!!! OPINIONThat you didn't offer??


Why do you bother, Sam. I'm well aware of that and have worked with quite a few. Some from your area. But the discussion is based on the perception that because someone works NCAA, they are the best. It just isn't a fact.

BTW, of course, they are a OPINIONS which is most of what is offered on any message board, including this one.

Quote:

Like in baseball, the fact that someone has attained a certain level does not make them the best/more experience or higher than the next guy/gal. It simply means they are the best/more experienced available. Alot of "the best/more experienced available "umpires are not working on the spring weekends?
The point of this comment?

Quote:

And there is one thing that some do not realize. ASA considers the rule book part of the package teams and umpires get for their registration. Ummm...yeh!! And you think it is a bargain? So does Amway!!


As opposed to being a leech and expecting everything for nothing?

Quote:

The NCAA does not have an umpire's association and I doubt they register the coach/team as an independent entity. They are a conglomerate of educational institutions banded together for the benefit and coordination of athletic programs. Kinda like companies (IBM, General Motors, Microsoft...etc... hiring the best available person to do the job they require?


Actually, EXACTLY like the companies you mentioned. The people they hire are NOT necessarily the BEST, but as you noted, the best AVAILABLE who is willing to do the job they way the COMPANY wants it for the money the company wants to pay. In many cases that involves sucking up to certain people, being a "yes" person, and totally abandoning any level of ethics, morality or loyalty. That's a pretty harsh insinuation about the NCAA folks and your fellow umpires.

Then again, I didn't say it, you did.

Quote:

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Your right. AmWay or any other pyramid scheme can do the same?? Those at the top get a percentage of the company fees, from there it trickles down...to those who...who generate some type of registration...whether it be team..insurance...umpire...uniform..etc..?? Thats why a $3.00 rule book cost $50-$65.00?


And that would be the organization the umpire voluntarily joins and controls through participating in the associations meetings, votes and elections. You do that right?

Quote:

Nothing inherently wrong with it...but lets be forthright in acknowledging it??
Never disavowed any such concern or suggest otherwise. You did that.

Texasbock Fri Sep 26, 2008 01:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skahtboi (Post 539516)
Indeed it is.

Coming from one who has been a member of Houston ASA for several years, "Thank Goodness!" :rolleyes:


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