foul tip or foul ball
 

I seem to remember this discussion a while ago but don't remember the answer. We had this happen today in a HS Federation game. 2 strikes and the batter hits ball directly and sharply back. Ball first contacts the catcher's mitt and then her chest protector. She then grabs the ball with her bare hand and secures it against the CP. The rule book says it is a foul tip if the ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's mitt or bare hand and is secured by the catcher. It doesn't mention what happens if it happens in the order that I describe. It seems to me both requirements for a foul tip have been met but am not sure if when it hit the CP if that made it a foul ball or not. I cannot find an exact play like this in the case book. Any help would be appreciated. Dave

This would be a foul tip, with the possible issue that this may not be a legal catch. I've underlined the problem phrase (for me) in your description.

The rule book says "caught by the catcher", not "secured". Trapping the ball against the catcher's equipment is not a legal catch. If the catcher made a legal catch, you have a foul tip. If not, a foul ball.

Unless this ball drops to the ground, is it not "caught" the moment the catcher securely holds the ball in his/her hand?

At some time the catcher must have the ball in her bare hand in order to get it back to the pitcher or roll the ball to pitcher's circle. I thought if it hadn't touched the ground at this point, it would be a foul tip. My PU partner simply called it a foul ball. I said I was pretty sure it was a foul tip, but since I wasn't 100% sure, we left it at a foul ball. I think we got it wrong. Dave

You got it right. If the ball goes directly to her glove but isn't caught at that moment, it's just a foul ball.

Yes, and it probably was a catch, but "securely hold the ball in her hand" was not what he said. He said she secured it against the chest protector.

That is not correct. It doesn't need to be caught "at that moment." It just needs to be caught by the catcher.

It needs to be direct to mitt or hand. It needs to be caught "clean". Anything else is a foul ball.

This is a foul ball since the ball did not go directly to either the mitt or hand.

It didn't?You have a significant misunderstanding of the foul tip rule. The batted ball DOES need to go directly back and first contact the catcher's hand or glove, but after it does that, the ball does NOT need to be caught "clean" - it merely needs to be legally caught by the catcher.

True,

Not true. The legal catch must occur before the ball contacts anything else, including the chest protector, mask, umpire, etc.

Additionally, a ball trapped against the chest protector is not legally caught.

David

Try reading the FED rule.

Bob

I take it that there is a difference between FED and the rest of the softball world?

Can somebody please post the rule reference/quote?

Thanks

David

It is a foul tip. The reason why is the word "and" in the rule, not "then".

To be a foul tip it says the ball need to be directly to the mitt or hand and legally caught. Once the ball does anything but go directly to the mitt or hand the first part rule is no longer fulfilled and we have a foul ball.

P.S. using ASA, sorry no FED book.

From NFHS Case Book:From the ASA Case Book:As I said, you (two) have a significant misunderstanding of the foul tip rule.

That is true, but how was the ball released? As previously noted. unless the ball is just allowed to drop to the ground from the trapped position or fumbled and dropped, it must have been held securely in the hand at some point prior to the release of the ball by the catcher.

Agreed....that piece of the puzzle is missing.

The ball goes Sharply & Directly to catcher's glove or hand And is ultimately caught by catcher (it can bounce from the glove or hand to the chest, head, etc. and still be caught). FOUL TIP

http://www.cactusumpires.com/pages/s.../foul-tip.html

I was correct on the field when I said it was a foul tip, but like I said, wasn't 100% sure at the time so didn't push the issue. Now with the help from some of you, I can see it was a foul tip, no doubt. It surely was a protestable ruling. I am glad it happened in a relative blowout, with the coach oblivious to the correct ruling. It was a good learning experience. Dave

A few months ago, we discussed the following play in ASA:

Ball goes sharp and direct off the bat, hits the catcher's hand, ricochets to her shoulder, and gets trapped behind the chest protector. Since in ASA a ball trapped in a defensive player's equipment is in play, if the catcher reaches in and secures the ball in her hand, this is a foul tip, regardless of how long it took her to secure the ball.

However, if the ball falls out onto the ground, or if the pitcher reaches in and pulls it out, it's just a foul ball.

I'm not sure whether Fed would consider that a foul tip (i.e., whether a ball trapped in a defensive player's equipment is in play—in NCAA, it's just a foul ball).

I'm also not sure whether in Fed a player other than the catcher can catch a foul tip. In ASA, it must be the catcher.

greymule, in Federation all action has to be by the catcher. If another fielder touches the ball it is just like it touched the ground. So you say NCAA has a different rule? Dave

So you say NCAA has a different rule?

NCAA is different from ASA as regards a ball trapped/lodged in a defensive player's equipment. In ASA, the ball is live; not so in NCAA. I don't know Fed's rule on this, though I seem to remember that in Fed baseball, it's a dead ball.

If as you say only the catcher in Fed can catch a foul tip, then Fed is in line with NCAA and ASA.

There's some code under which any defensive player can catch a foul tip. Maybe that's Fed baseball.

Sh#T, My bad.

I do have another question I have done what 20-40+ FB games a year for 8 years and countless baseball games for last 20 years and I really do not really ever remember this happen.

I have seen the ball go everywhere but never a foul tip hit the mitt or hand first and then come lose and then be caught.

Counting this thread we have heard about it twice, right? has some of you seen this more then that? and did you call it right?

There is a "foul tip" in football?

There is a "foul tip" in football?

Yes. It involves point spreads.

Lord knows I've had more than my share of those "foul tips."

Well, I don't bet based on "tips" from anyone. But I have found that the closer to the game the person is offering the "tip", the more unreliable it is.

I definetly agree with this one.

Fresh out of college. I went to UNLV so we were always looking for a "tip"....High school buddy is now the bullpen catcher for a MLB team. I get the call. IT's a lock, we're gonna clean up.:D Between five of us we come up with about $6,000 thousand dollars.

Three of us settle in to watch the game. By the bottom of the second inning we're now chasing 4 runs.:mad: Did I mention it's a LOCK. So Irish's statement gave me a chuckle.

Now I pick my losers like everybody else. Einey,meany, miney, mo......:cool:

So...does this mean that you blew $6,000,000 on one bet??? :eek: :D

Even worse, a bet on a BASEBALL GAME??? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sp...smilie/mad.gif

It was six thousand dollars-not 6 hundred thousand..Well my share was about $1200. Hey it was a LOCK. Couldn't lose. Had insider information.

That and we were all pretty young and living the Vegas life.....

Nowadays a hundred dollar bet can bring me to tears......

Shouldn't bet on your own games. ;)

As an official or player/coach/manager?

E) All of the above

I'm a firm believer in players and coaches should not only being allowed, but mandated to bet on their own team every game.

AFAIC, as long as Pete Rose did not bet against his team, he isn't guilty of anything except for having a lousy personality.

Sports officials should be able to bet on anything that does not directly involved games officiated.