Out or award base or bases
 

I was just getting to bed last night when one of our local coaches called me about a play that happened last night. Visiting team is on 3rd base side of diamond. This call did not alter game out come as his team, the home team won by 8 runs but he was just wondering.
Situation > 17,18 year old girls, 2 out with runners on 2nd & 3rd. Shallow pop fly to left feild where left feilder had to come charging towards the foul line in order to catch the fly. Angle of run was such that when catch was made she just kept running straight to gate opening for her bench. F7 had to make running shoe string type of catch, started to bobble ball immediadtely, kept running towards bench eventually trapping ball between arm and her stomach about 3 steps before gate opening. This was how she enter her bench. The plate ump who is in his 3rd year of umpiring ruled the batter out.
This was in the 6th inning with the home team up 8, coach came out not to argue the call but to get the ruleing. PU told him that since control was made before feilder entered dead ball territory the out stands. Coach figures since he's ahead, just needing 3 outs to get out of the rain that started falling the previous inning and this being a young umpire he'd let it slide.
When coach called me to get my opinion I told him I would get the PU version 1st then I would get back to him. I'm here at work so I have yet to talk to this guy so I thought I would send it out to you guys n gals to get your feed back. Me I'm thinking it's an invalid catch as control was not in glove or hand, dead ball when F7 enters dead ball area, one base award to runners, B1 on 1st.
your opinions please.

Well I would agree can't be a catch till it is controlled in hand or glove (also a hand controlling the glove :D ) but I am not sure about the entering DBT, I think it would have depended on the foul / fair of the ball. If the ball would have been fair I think you have the entering dead ball area, but I also wonder if it is 1 base or two, isn't the 1 base for a catch and carry? If we didn't have a catch we can't get this one can we? I agree it was probably involuntary, but I'd have to look at the book to see exactly how that's worded.... Now if the ball would have been foul (first touched over foul territory) then I am not sure if the entering DBT would come into play, since no catch runners couldn't have advanced on a foul ball.

So I guess this gives me 4 questions
1) Catch / no catch (my vote is no catch)
2) Would there be a penalty for entering DBT
3) would the answer to 2 depend on the status of the ball, foul / fair
4) Would the award be 1 base or 2?

PU told him that since control was made before feilder entered dead ball territory the out stands.

But you said that control wasn't established until the fielder entered DBT. Apparently you and the PU disagree on this judgment part of the call.

Me I'm thinking it's an invalid catch as control was not in glove or hand, dead ball when F7 enters dead ball area, one base award to runners, B1 on 1st.

I think I understand the above sentence, but a crucial element is missing in the OP: Was the ball fair or foul? Was the fielder's first touch of the ball over fair territory or foul? According to your description, in neither case was it a legal catch. If the ball was first touched foul, then it's just a foul ball. If the ball was fair, I guess you would treat it not as catch and carry but as a fair ball that bounces off a fielder into foul DBT and award two bases.

IMO,

If ball was first touched fair all runners awarded 1 base. Based on unintentionally carrying ball into DBT, Rule 8-5-J.

If ball first touched foul, you have a foul ball. My question on that, since it was a live ball when first touched, do you award all runners 1 base and rule a foul ball on the batter?

I don't have a book here to look this up, but isn't it two bases from the time it left in play territory since it's a ball intentionally deflected out of play?
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HOW TO ROLL A BLUNT

If intentional yes it is 2 bases. OP sounds like unintentional, momentum took her there

I agree with greymule.

We don't have a catch, so we can't enforce the catch/carry rule.

If batted ball is ruled fair, two base award.

If batted ball is ruled foul, foul ball.

To be clear with two outs, if we have a catch, there is no rule in question. The fielder can go into DBT with the ball. (Albeit, I'd rather they left it on the mound for the next pitcher.)
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Problems with wellbutrin

While the rule is informally called "catch and carry" the rule itself only says "unintentionally carried." It says nothing about requiring a catch first.

Sorry it was first touched in fair territory.

In my cave, when ASA 1.Catch and Carry says:
"A legal catch that a defensive player carries into dead ball territory."

I believe it is pretty much stating that the rules for a legal catch come into play. With that in mind, if F7 didn't 'legally catch' the ball, then we can't apply the unintentional catch/carry rule, ASA 8.5.J

Speaking ASA

To start, there is no catch.

As previously noted, if first touch was over foul territory, it is simply a foul ball.

If fair, it is a ground rule double based upon 8.5.I. Since there was never control on the field of play, I don't see how this can be handled any differently than a ball which deflects off a fielder and out of play.

Yeah, I know, but the rule itself does not use the phrase "catch and carry." Just "carry." I wasn't arguing the interp; only pointing out the rule book defines a term and then does not use it in the rule.

So if a fielder intentionally kicked a ball over the fence you'd award a ground rule double?
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ExotycCharm

ASA 8.5.K would be applied then. Two base award from the time the ball was kicked.

where does 8.5.J ever mention having to have caught the ball?

It says "when a live ball is unintentionally carried by a fielder from live ball territory". Then gives an example of a fielder running into a dugout to tag a player. Effect ball is dead and all runners are awarded one base from where they were when the ball left the field of play.

Why does this not apply to this situation...ball touched in fair ball and was unintentionally carried out of play.

8.5.I deals with a ball "Deflects off a defensive player and goes out of play into foul ball territory". This ball never deflected. Also talks about a fair batted ball that bounces over or goes through the fence.

To me looks like 8.5.J. is the most applicable rule.

Without actually defining 'carried', in my judgement, ASA is stating (ASA 1. Catch and Carry plus 8.5.J) that in order to carry a ball, it must be legally caught. If it is not legally caught, then it was never in control of the defensive player and couldn't be carried.

That is the way I am interpreting those two rules.

I might be wrong - it wouldn't be the first time, just the next.

After more thought and reading think I am going to change my opinion and go with the 2 base award on a fair ball.

However, if it is first touched foul and ruled foul, would you not award 1 base to the other runners?

I LOVE this question first!!

Ok let me try.

First, it is a fair ball. we all know that
As for the catch, I would have to see it. Since all the fun is with no catch lets go with that.
Now I am sure on the spot after calling no catch and fair ball, I would award one base for everyone.
But I love this idea of a double, and I think it is right. Lets say a line drive to the right fielder, it bounces and hits the fielder in the head and bounces over the fence. That is a double. We have the same thing here, since there was never control for a catch.
With that I would award the batter 2nd forcing in one run and moving the runner from second to 3rd.

again GREAT situation.

ok so we are saying a ground rule double, not a two base award from the time it went out of play. So R1 scores and R2 is on 3rd with BR on second. Which of course is different than the two base from point where it went out of play as R2 would also score on that!

Everybody but me seems to be getting there. I still think that this is a ball that is directed out of play not deflected. And I'd go with the latter.
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Colorado Medical Marijuana Dispensary

Why would you?

It wasn't a catch/carry with a fair ball - we awarded 2 bases to the batter and all runners because we had a fair batted ball enter DBT.

If we have an uncaught foul ball, which we do, we aren't going to advance runners.

If you're going to say the fielder intentionally put a fair ball into dead ball territory (without ever gaining control of it - lack of a legal catch), that is up to you. Be prepared for the fall out.

#1. How can a player carry a ball that, by rule, they have not caught?

#2. I think there is no question that the runner's departure from the field of play was not intentional in any manner, let alone to prevent runners from advancing.

#3. It seems there are a few folks trying to insert conditions not provided for in this and a few other scenarios recently.

Hence, your moniker! :cool:

Why wouldn't you award both R1 (originally on 3rd) and R2 (originally on 2nd) home on a ground rule double?

Had a blonde moment!! I was thinking too much into it! :o

In his hat?

In the crook of his arm?

Balanced on the tip of his nose?

:rolleyes:

Inexperience may be exactly the cause, but go through it with me anyway. I am going to double check the book on this one when I get home.

But this goes back to my question that you didn't answer. Here it is with more detail. Would you give a ground rule double if while fielding a ball near the out of play line it's kicked out of play after the batter gets past 1st? If it had happened last night, I'd have given them third. But from this discussion it seems the general consensus is that is still a ground rule double?

I thought that if a player goes to play on a ball that is in play and they inadvertently cause that ball to go out of play that we had two bases from the time of the mistake not two bases from the pitch (which is the result of a book rule double).

As for intent, that's how I read the OP. She figured she had the third out and ran the rest of the way into the dugout. The OP says she took three steps after the catch. But the more I think about it, I'm not sure that's relevant.
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Glass weed pipe

Yes.
Rule book clearly says all runners get two bases from the TOP (8.5.I.Effect)

Well, intent is something you have to judge. Since the player was struggling to get control of the ball, I doubt she had control of herself. As I read the OP, is seemed that the gate being where she was heading is consequential.

However, you may be right, but since it wasn't clearly stated that it was intentional, I did not address it. If Canump comes back and states it seemed intentional, then we have another scenario with which to deal.

Good morning every one. Thanks to you all for your input. I did give the PU a call last night when I got home from work to get a little feed back on the play. As I had posted he's just starting out his career in umping.
He said that F7 was on a full run when she tried for the shoe string catch, started bobbling the ball immediately and was trying to straighten up at the same time, first touch was just about 2 steps from the edge of the infeild. She bobbled the ball about 5 or 6 times. So if you all can imagine, it was probably quite comical to watch. He said even as F7 gained some what control of the ball " even tho it was not in her glove or hand but controled between her arm and body with her arm in a craddle like position" she was only a good step and a half away from the gate opening of her bench and as she passed thru the opening she was still in a stumbling, full out right run trying to straighten up. I know this diamond well, the 2nd gate opening is 8' past the bag, the bench stops about 10' from the opening and there is no enclosure around the bench so as F7 entered the only obsticle would have been equipment bags etc.
The PU stated that he's sure there was no intent, he hesitated as to what to call, he didn't know the run diference but knew it was a lot, bottom of the 6th and raining. He wanted the out and called such. He said if it would have been close game he would have conferred with his partner as he was not sure what the right call is.
Thank you all for your input, as i read them I have changed my way of thinking, as IRISH says it was not a controlled catch by the book. So I figure batted fair ball going out of play, ground rule dble, 2 runs score.
BUT I do see where the kid was coming from wanting the out under those conditions.

Thanks

OK, it took to post 12 to get the obviously correct answer.

Also, even though I joke about calls and SZ in rainy seventh innings, see below.