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-   -   Umpires are getting to robotic.. (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/44763-umpires-getting-robotic.html)

IRISHMAFIA Wed May 28, 2008 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
You DO NOT need to be a robot to be competent. You do not need to use the same universal signal and strikes to be competent and convey the message.

Want proof?

Watch MLB, Minor Leagues, HS Baseball, or College baseball umpires.
Why? Do you honestly believe that because umpires reach a certain level or assignment, they are the best? Or just the best available?

jimpiano Wed May 28, 2008 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
This is a bunch of hokey BS sold to softball umpires at clinics while we eat our cold donuts and stir our coffee in our Styrofoam cups.

I've never been confused watching a competent umpire regardless of his signals.

Rather the umpire points, hammers, chainsaws bow and arrows, throws, boxes, uses scissors, GD, box, Heel toe, knee, whether he says strike, heeyaa, haa, etc etc etc etc.

You DO NOT need to be a robot to be competent. You do not need to use the same universal signal and strikes to be competent and convey the message.

Want proof?

Watch MLB, Minor Leagues, HS Baseball, or College baseball umpires.

If you cant watch the game and keep up, youre in the wrong business. And they are not robots.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I worked 18G showcase this weekend and goofed with all kinds of different stances. Gerry D, Scissors, etc. What did a umpire say to me? "Man I like your baseball stance".

Ha!! That was funny.

At any rate, I personnally see the plate best in ASA's prescribed robot stance. But it was fun to goof around a little at a show case and experiment with different stances.
Well, if you are going to include common sense in your arguments you are going to ruin this forum.;)

wadeintothem Wed May 28, 2008 10:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA
Why? Do you honestly believe that because umpires reach a certain level or assignment, they are the best? Or just the best available?

What the hell does that have to do with my point? Obviously I included a range of baseball umpires from HS to MLB .. so there is nothing in that range of umpires that would indicate that I was only talking about the best. I was talking about any competent baseball umpire.

My point was if you are sitting there drooling into your potato chips because you just cant figure out if a baseball umpire is calling strikes or balls, you should not be anywhere near any diamond. Their signals are not confusing. No umpire should have any trouble working with an umpire using various calls as part of their plate work.

Likewise, softball signals are not confusing. Some are robotic.. but when they eventually make them, you understand it just fine.

kcg NC2Ablu Wed May 28, 2008 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
What the hell does that have to do with my point? Obviously I included a range of baseball umpires from HS to MLB .. so there is nothing in that range of umpires that would indicate that I was only talking about the best. I was talking about any competent baseball umpire.

My point was if you are sitting there drooling into your potato chips because you just cant figure out if a baseball umpire is calling strikes or balls, you should not be anywhere near any diamond. Their signals are not confusing. No umpire should have any trouble working with an umpire using various calls as part of their plate work.

Likewise, softball signals are not confusing. Some are robotic.. but when they eventually make them, you understand it just fine.

Have you seen tim McClelland work? it takes him like till the 9th inning to call the strike from the 1st inning on the 1st batter.... just bc they dont have mics on ALL the umpires at the NCAA regionals and supers doesnt mean that people don know what they called. the announcers are GARBAGE they dont even know they are at a softball game half the time. As softball umpires we call in the down posistion pop up ... signal ... take a step back. What about the guys who work scissors with a point for a strike in MLB... they take just as long or longer to signal... o WAIT they signal and VERBALIZE at the same time so really they take longer....

wadeintothem Wed May 28, 2008 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcg NC2Ablu
Have you seen tim McClelland work? it takes him like till the 9th inning to call the strike from the 1st inning on the 1st batter.... just bc they dont have mics on ALL the umpires at the NCAA regionals and supers doesnt mean that people don know what they called. the announcers are GARBAGE they dont even know they are at a softball game half the time. As softball umpires we call in the down posistion pop up ... signal ... take a step back. What about the guys who work scissors with a point for a strike in MLB... they take just as long or longer to signal... o WAIT they signal and VERBALIZE at the same time so really they take longer....
Tim McClelland is the perfect example of "timing" vs "way way too much time".

The announcers are sitting right behind the PU at most NCAA games.

If they are missing it.. guess what?

Maybe we need to rethunk it.

Dakota Wed May 28, 2008 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
... because you just cant figure out if a baseball umpire is calling strikes or balls, you should not be anywhere near any diamond...
Speaking as a fan in attendance at a MLB game, MLB plate umpire signals ARE hard to see if you are seated where you don't have a view of the PU from behind. The little wimpy side point is invisible if you have to look through the batter / catcher. Good thing they have competent scoreboard operators at most parks.

IRISHMAFIA Wed May 28, 2008 03:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
What the hell does that have to do with my point? Obviously I included a range of baseball umpires from HS to MLB .. so there is nothing in that range of umpires that would indicate that I was only talking about the best. I was talking about any competent baseball umpire.
I know, but I had that thought bouncing around and just needed to get it out. You just left the door a little ajar and I pushed. :D

Quote:
My point was if you are sitting there drooling into your potato chips because you just cant figure out if a baseball umpire is calling strikes or balls, you should not be anywhere near any diamond. Their signals are not confusing. No umpire should have any trouble working with an umpire using various calls as part of their plate work.

Likewise, softball signals are not confusing. Some are robotic.. but when they eventually make them, you understand it just fine.
Well, I would agree in most part, but not always. There have been times when I could not see an umpire's completely-clad dark blue arm low and in front of his dark blue shirt/jacket.

One in particular would use a scissor stand with right hand on his knee. A strike call was simply raise the right hand in front of his chest. From behind the plate, the movement was not noticeable. From the outfield, it was not noticeable.

This is my only complaint about "private" mechanics. To me, this is an umpire who has placed style before communications. You are right, you don't see it often, and for some, possibly never. It's just that I have.

wadeintothem Wed May 28, 2008 05:30pm
Well I would think there should be a happy medium somewhere. If someone had a strike signal that was poor in quality, that would be an evaluation "ding"... as opposed to how it is now....

"No dont do the hammer that way, thats the NCAA way, do it this way, the ASA way" :rolleyes:

Skahtboi Wed May 28, 2008 05:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
This is a bunch of hokey BS sold to softball umpires at clinics while we eat our cold donuts and stir our coffee in our Styrofoam cups.

I've never been confused watching a competent umpire regardless of his signals.

Rather the umpire points, hammers, chainsaws bow and arrows, throws, boxes, uses scissors, GD, box, Heel toe, knee, whether he says strike, heeyaa, haa, etc etc etc etc.

You DO NOT need to be a robot to be competent. You do not need to use the same universal signal and strikes to be competent and convey the message.

Want proof?

Watch MLB, Minor Leagues, HS Baseball, or College baseball umpires.

If you cant watch the game and keep up, youre in the wrong business. And they are not robots.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I worked 18G showcase this weekend and goofed with all kinds of different stances. Gerry D, Scissors, etc. What did a umpire say to me? "Man I like your baseball stance".

Ha!! That was funny.

At any rate, I personnally see the plate best in ASA's prescribed robot stance. But it was fun to goof around a little at a show case and experiment with different stances.
You get cold donuts and coffee at your clinics?? :D

Gotta disagree with you, again. A signal is just that, a signal. Meant to convery a message. The best way to convey that message clearly to everyone in a ballpark is to give a universal signal, not some variant that you or I choose to use.

In your opinion, then, where should this morphing of signals end. Is it okay for me to point to the ground for a strike, if that is my desired strike call? Where do we draw the line?

I am also telling you that there are some signals in the groups of umpires you named that fail to convey the message. I have been at a MLB park where, due to my angle to the plate, I couldn't see the little side point, and due to my distance from the plate I couldn't hear a call. THAT umpire failed to communicate to me and the hundreds of fans around me. Had he come up with a big, clear, hammer, we all would have known what the call was.

To me, the hokey is with those people who feel we should "express ourselves" on the field rather than use the prescribed signals.

kcg NC2Ablu Thu May 29, 2008 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadeintothem
Tim McClelland is the perfect example of "timing" vs "way way too much time".

The announcers are sitting right behind the PU at most NCAA games.

If they are missing it.. guess what?

Maybe we need to rethunk it.
They are missing it because they are in the press box and the umpires at NCAA games arent always mic'd it happened in the ACC baseball championship too.

Heightslife Thu May 29, 2008 04:16pm
Drop the Hammer
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skahtboi
I have been at a MLB park where, due to my angle to the plate, I couldn't see the little side point, and due to my distance from the plate I couldn't hear a call. THAT umpire failed to communicate to me and the hundreds of fans around me. Had he come up with a big, clear, hammer, we all would have known what the call was.
The operative part of your statement is "MLB park" meaning there is a HUGE scoreboard that will display the count soon enough. Raising a fist above your head wont be confused with an OUT so I understand its purpose = easier for fans to see the call. But a fist to most fans means OUT. I just watched a NCAA softball game and noticed called 3rd strike is a BOW & ARROW and swinging 3rd strike is just another overhead HAMMER. So my question is : What is the ASA uniform teaching on a dropped third strike? I admit some umpires raised right arm is not as pronounced as it could be but describing it as "little side point" doesnt do justice to those who do make it clearly visible.

Dakota Thu May 29, 2008 06:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heightslife
The operative part of your statement is "MLB park" meaning there is a HUGE scoreboard that will display the count soon enough.
You mean like the "slow" NCAA umpires displayed the hammer "soon enough"? :rolleyes:

Skahtboi Fri May 30, 2008 08:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heightslife
The operative part of your statement is "MLB park" meaning there is a HUGE scoreboard that will display the count soon enough. Raising a fist above your head wont be confused with an OUT so I understand its purpose = easier for fans to see the call. But a fist to most fans means OUT. I just watched a NCAA softball game and noticed called 3rd strike is a BOW & ARROW and swinging 3rd strike is just another overhead HAMMER. So my question is : What is the ASA uniform teaching on a dropped third strike? I admit some umpires raised right arm is not as pronounced as it could be but describing it as "little side point" doesnt do justice to those who do make it clearly visible.
But the problem is, there are several who don't make it "clearly visible." A hammer is clearly visible when executed properly. And I don't agree that a hammer automatically means out to "most fans." I think most fans would know on the first pitch to a batter, if the umpire gives a clear hammer, then the umpire must have called a strike as opposed to an out.

socalumps Sat May 31, 2008 01:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skahtboi
You get cold donuts and coffee at your clinics?? :D

Gotta disagree with you, again. A signal is just that, a signal. Meant to convery a message. The best way to convey that message clearly to everyone in a ballpark is to give a universal signal, not some variant that you or I choose to use.

In your opinion, then, where should this morphing of signals end. Is it okay for me to point to the ground for a strike, if that is my desired strike call? Where do we draw the line?

I am also telling you that there are some signals in the groups of umpires you named that fail to convey the message. I have been at a MLB park where, due to my angle to the plate, I couldn't see the little side point, and due to my distance from the plate I couldn't hear a call. THAT umpire failed to communicate to me and the hundreds of fans around me. Had he come up with a big, clear, hammer, we all would have known what the call was.

To me, the hokey is with those people who feel we should "express ourselves" on the field rather than use the prescribed signals.
Since there are differences....who's prescribed signals?

Skahtboi Sat May 31, 2008 05:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalumps
Since there are differences....who's prescribed signals?
Whichever organization you are working. ASA, when working their game, NFHS, when working theirs, or NCAA when working theirs. Fortunately, there is no real difference between them, except that NCAA has a couple of extra "acceptable" signals. Each list and have nice little diagrams in their respective umpire manuals.


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