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Really disapointed in the forum - ASA RULES
OK, fast set up play on a runner at first from foul territory on a caught ball. Defense uses colored section to get the runner. Is this OK?
Then I pissed off forum for not backing up any of the answers with anything but "this is what I think." Some took it as a challenge and did very good, like below. Others, well it is also below. Quote:
I guess I got it right on the field, but for the wrong reason. ASA feels the theory of the rule lets both the runner and the defense use both sections on a tag. I have added the letter at the end. Boys it has been interesting. I knew with a little prodding you all would work on this. Some of you could only insult, interesting. Thanks Quote:
A response like this should tell many of you why new people are not becoming umps, or least not staying with it. We drive people away. If you do not get what I am saying, just ask your assigner. "My name is Kevin Ryan and I am the Supervisor of Umpires for the ASA. Craig Cress sent this to me and asked that I respond to you. Yes you got the call right. Rule 8 Section 2 M 6 and 7 would cover this play. Section 2 M 6 says On ball hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner advancing to first base the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return to 1B, the runner and the defense can use the white or colored portions. Section 2 M 7 says When tagging up on a fly ball the white or colored portion of the base may be used. In both case we describe that the defense or the offense can use both colors. Regretfully we can not add every scenario of what might happen so we use the theory if the offense can use both colors then the defense can also. We will look at the wording this year to see if we can add a few words to help clarify. Thanks for the question. Kevin Ryan ASA Supervisor of Umpires |
Gee, I'm really disappointed in YOU.
As an ASA umpire, you should keep up with their latest rule changes and interpretations. When the safety base rules were updated in 2006, there were various interpretations issued that explained this exactly as the posters who responded. After the batter-runner has safely reached first base (ie: is no longer a batter-runner), the double base becomes, essentially, one big 15" X 30" base. At that point, "white" or "orange" do not apply. The defense or offense can use either portion of the bag. In short, the answers you got were 100% correct. And if you were keeping up with your sanctioning body's rule changes, you would know that! |
Darn, guess you'll have to mosey away and find a better forum.
I understand. No hard feelings. |
There's always eteamz: http://www.eteamz.com/fastpitch/boar...tch/index.cfm?
:rolleyes: |
Listen, you did nothing to follow up on our answers, including mine. The answer was simple, and you chose to not ask for clarification. If a coach asks you about a ruling, do you tell him, "rule 8, section 7, article S states that the runner is out if she..."? No, you simply explain the rule in plain English.
You didn't ask us to cite the rule. At best, requesting a citation was implied. So don't get p1ssy with us just because we aren't mind-readers. |
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I have to agree with the others who have basically replied that they are disappointed in you for failing to accurate and succinctly state what you wanted. |
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But, to respond to your challenge, http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/ruinkai/flipa.gif |
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Rule 1. Appeal Play Rule 2.3.H Rule 8.2.M Rule 8.7.F and subsequent effect RS #1 Appeals Clinic Guide Double Base.B.4: After the batter-runner reaches first base, both the batter-runner and fielder can use either color of the base for any defensive or offensive play. Don't get hung up on batter-runner v. runner. The defense may use the enter base for any play on a runner subsequent to the BR reaching 1st base or being retired. Hope that helps. |
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Probably not an umpire, just a parent or coach who thinks his team got hosed, when they didn't and was hoping someone would prove him right, which they didn't.
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What do I think? I think maybe you too have joined the ranks of ucking fidiots. Good luck in your other forum, and don't let the doorknob hit you in the @$$ on the way out. |
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Bah, he's a goner, gentlemen. Let him go. ;)
Or maybe a boner. Yeah. Boner. |
I am disappointed in his grasp of the English Language
Oy vey.
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Almost there, but you guys are still calling it wrong
Nothing personnel boys, but just stating what you think does not cut it in a rules interpretations, and I know how to get umps pissed off and writing, but was surprise to see only one decent response.
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sorry, not really
19 years umping, 5 years league commissioner and tournament director for 100+ teams, USSSA. If you can not tell I am a ump from my citations and how I set it up, ??? I still have only had ONE reply using any citations of the rules. I am blown away by that, I never state my opinion on a rule, because it does not matter, it ONLY matters what the rules says. I have seen to many umps not use the rules, but use what they think is right.
Lat me give you an example. Using USSSA slow pitch. A second foul ball on a 2 strike count is a out. Fly ball down the line runner on third. The ball is caught in FOUL territory, runner tags and comes home. Is it OK, well you should know since I am typing it that it is not. The ball is foul before it is caught hence the batter is out on the foul ball, and that is a dead ball situation so the runner can not advance. This situation was in the mechanics book, word for word, and I still had umps I worked with and in my leagues that would not call it. They did not like the rule and did not want to change. Sure enough I had to uphold a protest on this. Pissed me off even more the ump knew I would up hold the protest, knowing he was wrong, and he still stuck to his feelings, and he was wrong. P.S. I have not done USSSA since 2005, so it might have changed. Quote:
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Friends don't let friends post drunk.
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Well - I've sat right there while NUS staff have said it becomes one base; however, I am hard pressed to find anything to back up that in writing.
Nothing about his scenario shows him to be an umpire.. and doubtless it is some lame troll.. so set that aside... if we pretend this is some jerk coach wanting an answer in a protest.. how could it be answered? "Wild bill/JJ whomever at clinic says so" is not good enough. Personally, I'm pressed to find some support that would allow defense to use the colored bag on an appeal play from the foul side. I wouldnt mind a clarification from ASA on this. My instincts are that it would be allowed (I'm not a fan of the double base).. but I got nothing. |
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Of course, it is an appeal play Rule 2.3.H Does not come into effect How can it not? It defines the piece of equipment under discussion Rule 8.2.MDoes not come into play, sorry all there is a difference between a batter-runner and a runner. Then maybe you should actually read down to #7. "When tagging up on a fly ball, the white or colored portion of the base may be used." Since it is not possible for a BR to "tag up" on ANY type of play, this must refer to a runner. I guess this rule does come into play. Rule 8.7.F and subsequent effectI submit you go this one, but nothing o do with first base. I'm sorry, but it has everything to do with any of the first three bases. RS #1 AppealsNot a appeal That's twice in the same post Clinic Guide Double Base.B.4: After the batter-runner reaches first base, both the batter-runner and fielder can use either color of the base for any defensive or offensive play. Once a runner reaches first they are no longer a batter runner, so this is a false statement. I do not have a clinic guide to check though Don't get hung up on batter-runner v. runner. The defense may use the enter base for any play on a runner subsequent to the BR reaching 1st base or being retired.This is the "hang up." scares me you use that in your proof. If you had any experience with ASA interpretations and case plays you would know they use the term "batter runner" as a designation for the player who placed the ball into play throughout the scenario to avoid confusion. You asked for an answer. I provided the correct answer with appropriate citations and you still want to argue. If there is something in which to be disappointed, it certainly isn't this forum. I'm done with this one. |
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YOu are a pathetic umpire if that is true. You are asking a question that is admittedly tough and in fact covered at schools and clinics.. and what is covered at clinics may not jive up 100% with the exact wording of the rule... But appeal play is a no brainer Umpire 101. |
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I definitely have heard it said at clinics several times.. and that is how I enforce it and understand.. but looking for appeal play when I pressed myself, left me scratching my head. I looked through the test, all asa clarifications currently posted to the web, the 2008 case book and the rule book. .. I dont have the clinic guide. I think it would be simple enough to just fix the rule. It sure would be a lot shorter of a rule to simply be phrased the same as the clinic guide. :D |
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Problem No. 2: You made the wrong call. The wrong call you made was to some Internet Service Provider allowing you to access the internet, the web or anything else. It's obvious you don't have the common sense God gave to a donkey to even partially reading, posting, understanding or applying what you might learn in here. |
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Hey Tom! Where is that picture you normally post in these situations???
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If only I had kept this...
The ASA 2006 Rule Changes and Interpretations were quite clear about the "one big base" thing. I can't find the copy I printed out way back then, and they are no longer to be found on the ASA web site. So here's the next best thing... Get your mitts on a 2006 Rule Book. All the changes for that year are listed in the front of the book. With respect to the double first base rule changes, you will find this: Comments on double base changes: The rule now is basically written so that as a batter-runner while advancing to first base the color you must touch remains the same regardless of where the ball is hit or the throw comes from. Once you have passed first base the base now becomes one base made of a colored portion and a white portion, 30 X 15 vs. 15 X 15. And once it's "one big base", the offense or defense can certainly use any part of it. |
I stopped reading when I saw USSSA... Apparently USSSA is not doing a very good job with its umpires.
As other people have stated, go to a (ASA) national clinic. Hell...got to a reasonable LOCAL clinic...Hell ask almost any half-assed umpire, and he/she will tell you the correct ruling on this one. The umpire you asked GOT IT WRONG. Mike...and everyone else in here...GOT it right. You have anything else relevant to discuss? no? dont let the door hit you.... |
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Rule 8 Section 2M 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9: They now read as follows: Section M 3: Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion. (Removed is “by an infielder) Effect: Once the runner returns to the white or colored base, no appeal can be made. Comment: The Double base rule should apply whenever the batter-runner is advancing to first base regardless of where the ball was hit, infield or outfield. This also allows the batter-runner to return to either color after they have touched or missed the base no appeal can be made. Section M 6: On balls hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner 1advancing to first base, the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return, the runner may return to the white or colored portion. Comment: This effects the Batter-runner on all balls hit to the outfield and there is a play on the batter-runner. The double base applies to any ball hit regardless of where. The batter runner may also return to either base, white or colored. Section M 7: When tagging up on a fly ball, the white or colored portion may be used. Comment: To stay consistent and call the White or Colored portions the same. Section M 8: Fast Pitch, SP with stealing, 16-Inch Slow Pitch; on an attempted pick-off play, the runner may return to the white or colored portion. Comment: To stay consistent and call the white and colored portions the same. This also applies to a timing play. Section M 9: When there is a force play on the batter-runner, who touches only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball while on the white. Comment: Removed the words “By an infielder”. The double base rule applies to all balls hit regardless of where. Comments on Double base changes: The rule now is basically written so that as a batter-runner while advancing to first base the color you must touch remains the same regardless of where the ball is hit or the throw comes from. Once you have passed first base the base now becomes one base made of a colored portion and a white portion, 30 by 15 vs. 15 by 15 |
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Nice find...thank you very much. Hopefully one less troll in the house.... |
There it is!
thank you very much! Now the troll can.. uh pass this along to his alleged "state UIC" :rolleyes: |
Re
This may have been interesting if it were a difficult play to call.
Nice fishing trip, guy. |
USSSA in line with ASA
USSSA seems to be in line with ASA on this issue:
USSSA Seventh Edition: RULE 8. BASE RUNNING Sec. 17. The batter-runner is out: K. If using the double base: 1. A batted ball hitting the white portion is declared fair and a batted ball hitting only the colored potion is declared foul. 2. Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion. (ASA 8.2.M.3) The batter-runner is out when there is a play being made at first base and the batter-runner touches only the white portion, providing the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to first base. This is treated the same as missing the base. Once the runner returns to the white, no appeal can be made. Exceptions: A. If the ball is thrown from the foul side of first base line. B. When an errant or missed throw pulls the defensive player into foul ground. C. If using the double base, and there is a force play by an infielder on the batter-runner, who touches only the white portion and collides with the fielder about to catch a thrown ball while on the white. (ASA 8.2.M.9) Penalty: Interference is ruled, the ball is dead, the batter-runner is out, and all other runners are returned to the base last occupied at the time of interference. 3. The batter-runner or runner may touch the white or colored base when: A. advancing or returning on balls hit to outfield with no play being attempted. (ASA 8.2.M.6) B. tagging up on fly ball. (ASA 8.2.M.7) C. returning on an attempted pick-off play. (ASA 8.2.M.8) I could add more about USSSA vs ASA, but I won't go there ;) In my limited experience, most rule sets are the same, but there are always some differences. When it comes to the double base, USSSA and ASA seem to be "on the same page." |
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http://www.eteamz.com/softballumpire...es/trollof.jpg |
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They should be since the USSSA rules come from the ASA book.... |
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ASA made ruling
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I guess I got it right on the field, but for the wrong reason. ASA feels the theory of the rule lets both the runner and the defense use both sections on a tag. I have added the letter at the end. Boys it has been interesting. I knew with a little prodding you all would work on this. Some of you could only insult, but I am sure you have bigger problems then insulting me. Thanks Quote:
A response like this should tell many of you why new people are not becoming umps. We drive people away. If you do not get what I am saying, just ask your assigner. "My name is Kevin Ryan and I am the Supervisor of Umpires for the ASA. Craig Cress sent this to me and asked that I respond to you. Yes you got the call right. Rule 8 Section 2 M 6 and 7 would cover this play. Section 2 M 6 says On ball hit to the outfield with no play on the batter-runner advancing to first base the batter-runner may touch the white or colored portion. Should the batter-runner return to 1B, the runner and the defense can use the white or colored portions. Section 2 M 7 says When tagging up on a fly ball the white or colored portion of the base may be used. In both case we describe that the defense or the offense can use both colors. Regretfully we can not add every scenario of what might happen so we use the theory if the offense can use both colors then the defense can also. We will look at the wording this year to see if we can add a few words to help clarify. Thanks for the question. Kevin Ryan ASA Supervisor of Umpires |
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I'm done with this guy. He's a troll with an inferiority complex. Hope I never call with him. |
Changing your OP radically after numerous replies tells me you didn't know what you were talking about and are trying to revise history.
It was not a protest; it was a live ball appeal. Can you tell me why? What a jerk. |
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?? we are umps all we have are rules. I did ask for a interpretation, not opinions. You know I will not lower myself. I will leave it at that. |
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Let me set it up again: 1. under 2 outs 2. runner on first 3. foul pop up caught by first baseman in foul territory 4. First baseman beat runner back to the base, but used colored section to do it. 5. Runner was called out. To be an appeal there needs to be a violation, by way I will site ASA definitions for "appeals & protest". There is no violation. There is the rule interpretation of the first baseman being allowed to use the colored section. Since it is a interpretation of the rules it is a protest. It is really that simple, how are so many of you guys getting this wrong? 6. The coach believed me and my interpretation, which at the time was; since the play originated from foul territory the first baseman can use the colored section. When it should had been since it is a tag play both the runner and defense can use both sections of first. So he did not protest. |
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Maybe that's why he insists he's a blue. :D |
Is anyone else getting PM spam from our new troll friend?
Or am I just special? |
I got one PM from him, but I wouldn't call it spam... he just made the same argument in a PM he did on the board.
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This horse seems to be dead. No need to still kick it!
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