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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 13, 2008, 03:15pm
SRW SRW is offline
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Altered or Illegal

I am fairly confident I know the answer to this, but I wanted to get the self-proclaimed expert's opinions.

Bat check prior to Mens SP game, ASA Rules. All bats apaprently legal at that time.

B2 hits a single, and the ODB gets the bat. ODB brings the bat to the PU and tells him that the bat is rattling. PU inspects the bat, sees that it is one of the bats he inspected prior to the game. He shakes it, and it indeed has audible rattles.

Illegal bat, or altered bat?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 13, 2008, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRW
I am fairly confident I know the answer to this, but I wanted to get the self-proclaimed expert's opinions.

Bat check prior to Mens SP game, ASA Rules. All bats apaprently legal at that time.

B2 hits a single, and the ODB gets the bat. ODB brings the bat to the PU and tells him that the bat is rattling. PU inspects the bat, sees that it is one of the bats he inspected prior to the game. He shakes it, and it indeed has audible rattles.

Illegal bat, or altered bat?
If the characteristics of the bat have changed since it was manufactured, what have you got?

I'd not penalize the ODB or B2. Just tell him to get another bat and to put that bat away. If it didn't rattle when you inspected it before the game, the rattle could have been the result of the hit.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 13, 2008, 03:21pm
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Oh... But if you see that same bat again in the batter's box, ring 'em and boot 'em.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 13, 2008, 03:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRW
I am fairly confident I know the answer to this, but I wanted to get the self-proclaimed expert's opinions.

Bat check prior to Mens SP game, ASA Rules. All bats apaprently legal at that time.

B2 hits a single, and the ODB gets the bat. ODB brings the bat to the PU and tells him that the bat is rattling. PU inspects the bat, sees that it is one of the bats he inspected prior to the game. He shakes it, and it indeed has audible rattles.

Illegal bat, or altered bat?
Unless you have evidence of tampering, it is now an illegal bat.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 13, 2008, 06:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SRW
I am fairly confident I know the answer to this, but I wanted to get the self-proclaimed expert's opinions.

Bat check prior to Mens SP game, ASA Rules. All bats apaprently legal at that time.

B2 hits a single, and the ODB gets the bat. ODB brings the bat to the PU and tells him that the bat is rattling. PU inspects the bat, sees that it is one of the bats he inspected prior to the game. He shakes it, and it indeed has audible rattles.

Illegal bat, or altered bat?
Like someone - Dave, I think - already said, unless you have evidence of altering, it's just a bat that has reached the end of it's life cycle. It has with this last hit deteriorated so much that the innards are breaking down - that's why you can hear the rattle when you shake it.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 14, 2008, 08:29am
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Last weekend I was in a tournament where the Rocket tech bats with the rivets were being used by almost every team.

In almost every case when we found the bats the rivets were sticking out slightly. In every case where the rivets were sticking out my partner told the coach, "Get a hammer and knock the rivets in and I'll let you use this bat."

I feel that this is telling a coach to alter the bat and then allowing it in.

What is the feeling in here on this?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 14, 2008, 08:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outathm
Last weekend I was in a tournament where the Rocket tech bats with the rivets were being used by almost every team.

In almost every case when we found the bats the rivets were sticking out slightly. In every case where the rivets were sticking out my partner told the coach, "Get a hammer and knock the rivets in and I'll let you use this bat."

I feel that this is telling a coach to alter the bat and then allowing it in.

What is the feeling in here on this?
I agree with you. No umpire should ever tell a coach that he should take a hammer to a bat. If anything, send it back to the manufacturer.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 14, 2008, 09:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outathm
Last weekend I was in a tournament where the Rocket tech bats with the rivets were being used by almost every team.

In almost every case when we found the bats the rivets were sticking out slightly. In every case where the rivets were sticking out my partner told the coach, "Get a hammer and knock the rivets in and I'll let you use this bat."

I feel that this is telling a coach to alter the bat and then allowing it in.

What is the feeling in here on this?
The older model RTs had this issue - the rivets on the end of the bat would work their way out. The newer models don't seem to have this issue.

I have done the same thing as your partner, just not told them to use a hammer. Usually, knocking the bat against the dugout pole worked just fine.

Our local UICs never had a problem with it.
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Old Wed May 14, 2008, 10:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outathm
Last weekend I was in a tournament where the Rocket tech bats with the rivets were being used by almost every team.

In almost every case when we found the bats the rivets were sticking out slightly. In every case where the rivets were sticking out my partner told the coach, "Get a hammer and knock the rivets in and I'll let you use this bat."

I feel that this is telling a coach to alter the bat and then allowing it in.

What is the feeling in here on this?
I don't see this any different than a bat needing some tape added or removed to make the grip legal. If a bat with a minor (but fixable) defect can be made legal, why not?

If the rivets can be tapped back in, why not? Not sure I want to see the hammer, but I have watched them tapped back in by a dugout pole, fence pole, or equivalent.
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Old Wed May 14, 2008, 10:36am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve
I don't see this any different than a bat needing some tape added or removed to make the grip legal. If a bat with a minor (but fixable) defect can be made legal, why not?

If the rivets can be tapped back in, why not? Not sure I want to see the hammer, but I have watched them tapped back in by a dugout pole, fence pole, or equivalent.
Anything that has worked its way out once can work its way out again. Only thing is, the next time it does so, it will be even easier.

If I encountered a bat like that during my bat check, I'd make sure they didn't use it for that game. I don't care if they tap the rivets back in or not.

Would you consider a bat like this to have "excessive wear?" These are obviously older bats that have seen much use, and the exposure of the rivets may be considered a symptom of the bat being used past its limit.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 14, 2008, 10:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp
...These are obviously older bats that have seen much use, and the exposure of the rivets may be considered a symptom of the bat being used past its limit.
Not necessarily. The Anderson bats of a couple of years ago exhibited this problem with relatively little use.
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Old Wed May 14, 2008, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
Not necessarily. The Anderson bats of a couple of years ago exhibited this problem with relatively little use.
Well, if the manufacturing of the bat only allowed for that little use, then it's obviously past its limit. I say that only half-jokingly, but with an element of truth.

But seriously, let's look at the bigger picture: safety. If those rivets can come out once, they can come out again. In this condition, the bat is obviously not fit for play, so I'll toss it if I find exposed rivets.
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Dave

I haven't decided if I should call it from the dugout or the outfield. Apparently, both have really great views!

Screw green, it ain't easy being blue!

I won't be coming here that much anymore. I might check in now and again.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 14, 2008, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outathm
Last weekend I was in a tournament where the Rocket tech bats with the rivets were being used by almost every team.

In almost every case when we found the bats the rivets were sticking out slightly. In every case where the rivets were sticking out my partner told the coach, "Get a hammer and knock the rivets in and I'll let you use this bat."

I feel that this is telling a coach to alter the bat and then allowing it in.

What is the feeling in here on this?
It is nothing more than telling a coach to tighten a screw holding the face mask securely to the helmet.

This is a common problem, known to ASA, in the older Anderson models. At ASA's request, Anderson reworked their bats to eliminate the rivets holding the cap into place.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 14, 2008, 11:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp
Well, if the manufacturing of the bat only allowed for that little use, then it's obviously past its limit. I say that only half-jokingly, but with an element of truth.

But seriously, let's look at the bigger picture: safety. If those rivets can come out once, they can come out again. In this condition, the bat is obviously not fit for play, so I'll toss it if I find exposed rivets.
Rejected Anderson prototype design:

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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 16, 2008, 08:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve M
It has with this last hit deteriorated so much that the innards are breaking down - that's why you can hear the rattle when you shake it.
That's how I feel some days.
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