when does the look-back-rule go into effect after a hit batter
 

Kind of a dust-up up here last week. NFHA rules. Batter hit by pitch, ball skipped off the dirt and hit her in the bottom of the foot. She was awarded first base. Batter who is unhurt runs to first. Ball is returned to the pitcher, who is in the circle. When the runner gets to first she wonders off the base. Plate umpire sees this and asks the base umpire dose he have time? No! Plate umpire rules batter out for being off the base (LBR). The AD has asked, when does the look-back-rule go into effect after a hit batter?

When the umpire makes the ball live again. In this case, I doubt that the umpire had a batter up and was ready to play, so he messed this one up.

The funny thing is, it was the PU who had "time" when he initially called the dead ball on the hitbatsman.

Scott,
You just beat me to it. When the batter was hit by the pitch, the ball became dead. She can't violate the look back rule while the ball is dead!

When the PU looks at the pitcher, who has the ball, and says "play."

All good answers. I suspect PU had a brain cramp and forgot the ball was dead.

It is not at all unusual for a hit batter to "walk it off" after arriving at first base. Sounds like what she was doing.

See NFHS Rule 5-1-4

After a dead-ball situation, the ball becomes live when it is held by the pitcher within the 16-foot circle and the umpire calls and/or signals "Play Ball" and gives a beckoning hand signal.

Talk about looking for booger!!! This guy found a snoot full!

That'snot funny.

something similar happened
 

R1 on 3rd...B/R gets ball 4...R1 comes off 3rd...F2 starts to run her back...B/R rounds 1st and is 1/2 way to 2nd when F1 recieves the ball in circle...B/R stops...I kill it and at the same time F1 raises her hand as a fake attempt at B/R...R1 runs home...I felt I jumped the play at 2nd and awarded B/R 2nd and made F1 return to 3rd...so when does the LBR take effect in this situation? I still think that perhaps B/R should have been out because she made the attempt for 2nd but does the fake attempt wipe out that liability?

LBR went into effect when pitcher had ball in circle and batter/runner touched first.

BR has one stop after rounding 1B.

Sounds like you might have gone a little quick. If you called time before BR made 2B I probably would have sent her back to 1B.

I had a HUGE brain fart a couple of weeks ago..called dead ball on runner at 3B for LBR before BR made 1B. Action continued, even though I said Dead Ball, and BR wound up at 2B and R1 scored. Man did I have some explaining to do!!Luckily Offensive Coach realized I was human and wasn't too mad (he was winning anyway)!

Sooo...why the heck would you call time? Ball's in play let 'em play. Other than a case of OOO no other reason to call time based on the info presented.

Don't know where or from whom you received your training, but the rule is pretty clear. Other than how long you allow the runner to stop, there is very little else for the umpire to "think" about on the LBR.

You need to get back into the book, RS & case plays and get a complete understanding of this rule.

There is one thing that you guys may be missing:


How long was the B/R stopped before you killed the play?

The rule allows for the stop, but says she must immediately proceed to the next base or retreat to the previous base. The definition of "immediately" is umpire judgement. If the runner was still long enough that the umpire started to kill the play, but at the same time, F1 raised her arm to make a play on the B/R, I can agree with the enforcement of LBR.

If you (cloverdale) killed the play as soon as the B/R stopped, yeah, you were too quick. If you waited a reasonable amount of time (approx 2 seconds) and the B/R was still stopped with no action from F1, kill the play, call the B/R out, and put R1 back at third.

Irish,
Go easy there chief. I think what cloverdale had in mind was the part of the LBR that says the BR is committed to 2nd and must continue on to 2nd once she rounds first and makes an attempt to 2nd. Now we know that part of the rule does not apply to this situation as the BR had passed 1st prior to F1 getting the ball in the circle. Granted someone with your years of experience and knowledge knows this like the back of their hand....but it can be seen how someone might have that part of the rule and misapply it to this situation.

Cloverdale,
As I kind of mentioned above and as Dholloway mentioned the committment to 2nd is only if F1 has the ball when BR reaches 1st, after that it does not apply and she has her one stop. Now also as Andy pointed out, if she had an excessive stop (more than reaction time in your judgement) then you could be correct in your call to kill it and call the runner out. Now note she is out for not retreating or advancing (standing still off base) part of the LBR NOT anything to do with reversing direction. Also another note is after you have decided to call the LBR, kill it and don't worry about what F1 does after that....cause by the time you decide to kill it the violation has already occurred. NOW you are correct that the F1 "making a play" on the runner does release them from the LBR momontarly so if you are thinking she better move or...then F1 raises her arm...your clock starts over. But if you are thinking she better more or thats too long then F1 raises her arm...you have to kill it and call her out. Offensive coach conversation will be "coach I was killing it as F1 was lifting her arm, your runner had violated the rule prior to her making a play"

No such rule.

Ok ASA 8-7-T-3-c states that " A batter-runner who over-runs first base toward right field, turns left and moves directly toward second base and stops is committed to second base and must attempt to advance non-stop to second"

You are correct this part of the rule does NOT apply to this situation. That was my point, this runner did not overrun toward right field and did not stop after turning left. That was my point, cloverdale misapplied the above rule in this case....but there is a rule that states with exact circumstances that a runner must continue on to 2nd once they start toward it. That was my point that there are times, more so when as you are gaining experience, where something happens and you remember that there is that one rule that says something about.......but on the field in the heat of the action you forget the specifics (has to overrun 1st heading to right field and turn to 2nd and then stop.....and the F1 has to have ball in circle while this is going on). You are also correct that I left out the overrunning 1st and stopping for the sake of being brief, but unless I am failing english terribly it appears that ASA does have a rule that requires the BR, now Runner to continue on to 2nd after they start that way...with the limitations listed in the rule. Also it appears to be the same rule 8-7-4-C in the FED book.

For the benefit of the OP (since you know all of this)..

There are overly complicated (IMO) and even goofy (IMO) rules for the LBR when the BR overruns 1B. (ASA 8-7-T-3 b thru e; NFHS 8-7-4 b thru e) If the BR overruns, she can find herself in a situation where she has not yet stopped, but is nonetheless committed to either 1B or 2B, no option.

None of those overrunning rules apply when the BR rounds 1B. The rule for a BR who rounds is ASA 8-7-T-3a / NFHS 8-7-4a. If she rounds, she is not committed to either base until she stops and then moves again (assuming F1 has the ball in the circle and is not making a play). She is allowed this stop, and rounding 1B and continuing toward 2B does NOT commit her to 2B. She may still take her one stop and then return to 1B, if she so chooses.

If she stops ON the base (and F1 has the ball in the circle and is not making a play), she may not leave.

Okay, maybe a little harsh.......nah. As much as I would love to kill the LBR, this is one of the most important rules an umpire must know if s/he is going to work FP softball for any organization. Granted, this may not be Cloverdale's fault depending on how quick he was put into this situation and the training offered before being placed there.

In it's simplest form, which is exactly what Cloverdale's hijack post noted, it is not that difficult. What can happen once the pitcher has the ball in the circle and a runner is off the base? The runner is given one opportunity to stop and then must immediately proceed to either base. If that does not happend, the ball is dead and the runner declared out.

He was correct, he did jump it early, as it seems he did not give the runner the opportunity to continue or retreat. But then he went on to say the BR should have been declared out just for trying to go to 2B.

The problem is he didn't apply any rule. He killed the play and than awarded the BR the next base.