NCAA 3 Person Mechanics
 

In a situation with no one one and the U1 goes out on a fly ball or line drive. By the book the touch at first by the batter-runner U3's call. Is it common for the plate umpire to take this call?

Also, if the right fielder makes a throw to first and the plate umpire takes the touch, he would also take this call. Correct?

NCAA might be different but I doubt it, I am sure someone will chime in if I am wrong.

ASA and FED you are right U3 has the BR when U1 goes out. You are back to 2 person mechanics. BUT you are also correct that sometimes the crew will deviate and communicate (required if you are doing something NOT by the book) and the PU will take the call at 1st base. (S)He has the best angle on that play and with just a little more effort (suppose to be trailing about 1/2 way up the line anyway) can be even closer to the play than U3.

Using NCAA mechanics, if U1 chases, then the touch of the runner at first with no one on is the responsibility of the PU. He is also responsible for the throw back to first. U3 should be at second for any potential play there.

I'm not familiar with FED Mechanics, but in ASA the PU has BR to 1B don't they?

No. In ASA, if U1 chases, the U3 becomes THE BU. That makes him/her the primary at 1B. You need to communicate that change, if PU comes up to make the (obviously clearer) call.

You might want to re-read the manual. I'm reading it as PU has the play. Can anyone clarify.

You are right about one thing; someone may need to reread the manual.

Fly ball coverage with no runners on base. PU is to "Trail batter/runner toward first. If first bse umpire goes out, ASSIST IN WATCHING batter/runner touch first base." U1 is to "If third base umpire goes out on fly ball, come inside the diamond, buttonhook, and take runner to third base." U3 is to "If first base umpire goes out on fly ball, come inside the diamond and take the runner to third base."

So, which part says PU has a play at first? If you read that, then, PU must, by your reading, also have the play at first when U3 goes out, over U1, since the exact same terminology is used. Do you agree that U1 has the call at first when U3 goes out, and that PU simply "assists"? Then, by the same wording, U3 has the play at first when U1 goes out, and PU simply assists.

If you can't follow that, then no one can clarify it for you.

ASA states specifically that this is the call of U3 anytime (bold mine) U1 chases for consistency sake. They also don't want you to pre-game deviate this mechanic for the same reason. However, it is also commonplace for PU to take this responsibility so long as they commuicate every time that they are taking the call.

The mechanic for NCAA requires PU to take the touch and call at 1B, U3 goes straight to 2B.

First..sorry about the way the read the book sounded...didn't mean it the way it "came out".

The ASA National Umpire School I went to this year they said PU has the play at 1B. Every ASA National I have done they say PU has play at 1B.

Add to that, page 182-183 of the manual under Leaving the Plate Area and Trailing the Batter-Runner states This will enable you (meaning PU) to either make or assist the base umpire in administration of
7. The base umpire going to the outfield. You are already in position to make any calls on the bases that may develop.

Also, althought I don't know if this is from ASA or not, but on Cactus Umpires (ASA) there is a document http://www.cactusumpires.com/pdf/3-umpire-handout.pdf it states on page 3 section 3

When an umpire chases, we are working
with two umpires. Usually, but not always,
we revert to the two umpire system.
For instance, when 1U chases with no one
on, P covers 1st and 3U rotates into 2nd.
When the BR advances to 2nd, P goes back
to the plate and 3U takes the runner to 3rd
if needed.

So that is why I am having confusion on the matter.

Cactusumpires is not an ASA site...it has information about and relating to several affiliations. The example you used is the NCAA mechanic...from the NCAA Umpire Manual. One of the best umpire resourcing sites you will find anywhere.

Okay; I understand that your first response didn't mean what it sounded like. Apology accepted.

Can't speak for which staff members taught your NUS, nor which UIC'd your Nationals. And, I personally believe that the PU obviously has a better look at this play, particularly if it is the linedrive and one hop pickup and throw to first for a banger. U3 doesn't have a chance.

All that said, I promise you that the official word from the very top is that when U1 goes out, U3 becomes THE ONE AND ONLY BU, that must make all calls that BU would make in the 2 umpire system. PU must "call" the BU off to follow protocol, since we don't agree to change standard mechanics in a pregame.

The way that I understand ASA, AtlSteve hit the nail on the head. It is better to have PU take the call, but that is not "by the book" and you cannot change the book before you hit the field, you make changes as they become necessary in the game, even though you make this change most every time that it happens.

By the way I had this play today in an NCAA game. I was PU and said "two man" as U1 went out but did not call U3 off. He asked me, as we were going back to our positions, if I was going to take the touch all day.:confused:

In any ASA I have done, if U1 or U3 go out, we revert to standard 2-man mechanics.

Scooby, for some reason I think maybe your partner hasn't read the NCAA Umpire Manual. Maybe that partner was too cheap to spend the $10?

Not to throw him under the bus, because he is a good umpire. Much more experienced than me. Works in several DI conferences.

Wow! That's half the price that I paid for mine!!!! :eek:

Dholloway1962,
Not sure which NUS you attended this year, but I also went to one and the one I attended made the messages clear, 1) this is BU's call by the book, and 2) if you deviate you communicate. It was mentioned that this deviation occurres several times in a lot of crews, especially depending on the situation (speed of U3 vs speed of play quick scoop and throw) BUT it was made VERY clear that if you as PU are going to take that call in an ASA game you better call U3 off early and you better darn well be there to make it!!

Scooby,
Any chance this was just a cool way for that umpire to ensure himself that you knew that was your call??? I have asked umpires that I have not worked with a lot that type of question before and it was more of a discussion starting point to ensure they knew that was their call (not this specific situation but others) It can bring out an issue before it happens and make sure everyone is on the same page. One thing that might help is telling your partner "yep thats mine all day just like the book says" not being a smarta$$ but ensuring him that you have read the book and know wtf you are doing! Again not saying this was the case, maybe he was thinking ASA, nobody but him knows for sure, but just an alternative look at what might have been going on.

Just out of curiosity, what happens if PU gets tangled up with catcher/bat/whatever, and isn't there to take the call? (speaking NCAA)

The same thing that would happen if the BU ran into F5 and fell on his face in ASA. There would be a communication between the two remaining umpires (I would hope), and the non-tangled umpire would make the call. In your case, the BU. In my case, the PU.

You mean one remaining umpire as the third is going out on the fly ball (or it wouldn't be an issue).

I think that is what Scott is saying there are two umpires to make the call at first (U3 and PU) if PU falls he is going to yell as he hits the dirt "O S^&T HELP" or something to that effect and U3 is going to say, "I got it clumbsy a$$" so the two remaining umpires are going to talk.

Or the old "your never through till you see another blue" will kick in and U3 will look for partner as they are going to 2nd, see him/her rolling on the ground, laugh a little bit and then proceed to cover first.

You, clearly, understood my post. :D

Just like the three-man mechanic we have all encountered...when both BUs go out as you holler "ONE MAN!";)

In a playoff, a couple of years ago, I was working a four man crew. We had a very detailed pregame, as only myself (PU) and another guy (3U) had ever worked four man before. In this, we covered that there will always be an umpire out on a fly ball, usually 2U, and gave the exceptions. We fielded all of the questions from the other two, and covered the important mechanics differences at least twice.

Sure enough, on one of the very first fly balls (to right center) I hear my 3U yell "two man." Sure enough, both 1U and 2U had gone out on the fly.

Guilty! One of my early 3-man experiences.

I was U3 with a runner on 2nd. Deep fly to the fence in left. I thought it was toward the line, U1 thought it was straight over F7's head. We both chased. Yes, it was my bust -- should have read my partner. Thankfully, the ball cleared the fence.

Guilty.....

Just curious...how do you all pregame in 3-umpire who chases on fly balls between fielders?

I have been taught to allow U1 the "right of first refusal". In other words, U1 makes the decison on whether or not to chase and U3 keys off of that.

Exactly the way we cover it -- and now I make sure it's covered before every game.

It should be the same everywhere. That is a key part of fly ball coverage in the 3 man system. Also, I prefer the approach that the NCAA has taken of not to waste an umpire if it is not needed, in other words, clear base hits to the outfield, or can of corn pop flies, do not require an umpire going out on them.

Yeah, me too. I suspect EVERYONE who works a 3-man has done that, at least in the first few 3-man games.
AND, I've also been the guy who's hollered "1-man".
So I've covered both ends of that fun.

I finally got to talk to our regional UIC. In ASA it is the BU call. I stand corrected as I guess I misunderstood. Just wanted to clarify in case I led anyone astray.

Mike, I think you confused which thread you are in. This one is about who makes the call at first when U1 chases and no runners on.

What?

:confused: I was talking about ASA 3 umpire system, no one on, 1B umpire chases...who has call at first

No. Who is ON first. :D

That must be for the Amazon Warrior division.

Who is setting me up here? :confused: I never posted that. :eek:

Or, at least I don't remember posting it. :rolleyes:

Okay, okay. I was in the wrong thread. Late night fatigue. :o

By NCAA the manual says that with no one on and u1 goes Pu is supposed to move to 15-18ft awa from 1st and watch runner touch as well take any play at first.... why on earth would you make U3 run all the way acrossed just to have a crappy view and most likely crappy distance.now on a tag up or with runners in scoring posistion its different. but really a little common sense/ reading the whole manual not just parts would show you that PU has that touch and Call at first

Maybe because the entire play is just as much in front of U3 as it is the PU and requires no additional effort on U3's behalf. And exactly how close does an umpire need to be to watch a touch of the base? The diamond isn't that big. If you think it is, try working a 3-umpire system on a 80' base diamond.

Unfourtunately you are correct in the sense that it is just as easy to see a touch from u3 as it is from pu I gues my MAIN point should have been that on the possible throw back it will be the MOST optimal view from PU not from U3 and the question was on NCAA mechanics... this is the Softball forum...Last time I checked NCAA Womens fast pitch didnt play on 80ft bases... So According to the NCAA Fastpitch Softball manual this is the best person to see the touch and to have the throwback... I would hate to disagree with the national umpire improvement program ... especially when I 100 percent agree with the mechanic

kcg. Just some courtesy tips to make your posts a little easier to read. Punctuate your sentences. When a thought ends, place a period there. Slow down, and try spell checking your posts before you make them. Little things like this make it much easier on the rest of us to understand the intent of your post.

Now, to the issue you brought up with the NCAA UIP. The manual released by the CCA is an excellent tool. I follow it to the T, or at least try to, when I am working the collegiate game. However, it is only intended for use in the college game. It does not supercede the mechanics put forth by ASA or NFHS for their respective games. Would I like to use the collegiate mechanics in all games? Yes, for the most part. However, to prevent confusion with my non-collegiate colleagues, I will follow the mechanics prescribed by the organization governing the game I am working. I suggest you adopt this philosophy as well.

That would be correct. Welcome.

No, but YOU asked the question and I simply answered it.

I was not the individual who introduced ASA of NFHS to the thread as a comparable source of mechanics, but did follow it up. And being a SOFTBALL board and we are talking variable SOFTBALL mechanics, the last major level SOFTBALL national I worked was the 3-umpire system on an 80' diamond.

And that is fine, when in Rome.....

That doesn't mean everyone must fall in line. Been there, done that. Just don't agree it provides any better view.

Forgive me for not using proper English in my previous posts. I most certainly make an effort to punctuate my sentences properly and make everyone happy with that.

In regards to your opinion that the Plate Umpire coming up the line does not provide a better view my response is this: I agree with you if and only if you are speaking about strictly watching the touch. However, I whole-heartedly disagree with you if you are talking about a possible tag play.

In my experience the best place to be on a tag play is with your belt buckle lined up with the "Action Edge" , or the edge where the runner is sliding back in to the base, and being closed down on the base approximately 6 feet away so that you get the "Fourth Dimension" or the over the top look to the tag. If the plate umpire sees a tag play forming then the plate umpire should close down to tag play calling depth and make said call.

The Question that was put up here was about NCAA mechanics. The reason I sarcastically responded to your 80 ft base comment was because again its not going to ever be the case ( unless the game COMPLETELY CHANGES) that in a NCAA womens softball that we will have an 80 ft base path. I don't understand why you would throw the 80 ft into a question about NCAA mechanics.

I do not understand why U1 would be out on a ball hit so sharp and close that there would be a throw back to 1B. If it was deep ball, U3 should have plenty of time to get into position to see the play and make the call.

Apparently, comprehension isn't a strong suit with you either. There were 13 (of 14) follow up posts mentioning ASA and/or NFHS prior to my first response and I specifically noted the query was for NCAA.

My more recent post was simply my opinion of the NCAA mechanic. "Opinions" are another thing we do on this forum. Then, silly me, I thought an offer of a distance comparison with which I, and a handful or so other umpires, are familiar might help. Guess not.

I am not debating with you (IRISHMAFIA) about asa and fed but when I mention something that is strictly answering in NCAA why would you try to put me down with a fact totally irrelevant to the question in which I was answering? so it sounds pretty silly to me to do such a thing... As for why u1 would be out... trap catch where right fielder decides to pull up instead of diving for it thus giving her time to make a throw to first. or if a sharp hit line drive that has catch/no catch or possibly fair foul situations where u1 would need to go and the batter runner rounds first to much for the player taking the cut off throw to second and a pick off throw back into second. Any variation on those would be PLENTY of reason why u1 would chase and why PU would need to be there for that call. So opinion or not... now way you can see anything or be in any posistion to make a call as u3.

Using a comparable distance that was, at that time, used in the softball world is putting you down?

Well, actually I once could on a 60'-65' field. And I will again especially now that I had my new bionic knee installed :D. And I know at least a couple members on this board that could accomplish that task and they don't have new knees.

I'm not saying it is easy, but very possible and requires some serious hustle. But then again, that is what we are supposed to be doing anyway.

I agree that it is not easy and that its totally possible. Thats just it though itsPOSSIBLE which is not what I would want. The PU has 52 to 54 feet to get in calling depth and position where as U3 has 80 or more feet(my masters degree was in marketing not math) to cover to get in OK position not the best possible position which in addition to hustle is a HUGE priority if not the #1 priority as an umpire. That being said the PU has the best opportunity to get in the best position and see the play/touch at first. And as for myself I know I COULD get there but it would be a struggle to get in the best calling position/depth and if I didn't do that then well I would feel bad for not doing my job.

Well, you have a good time doing whatever it is you do, I really don't care.

And, BTW, I don't think anyone really cares about your pedigree. It's not like the rest of us go out of our way to mention our PhDs.

well you insulted my intelligence so much I figured you should know that not everyone who you put down is as ridiculously incompetent as you play them out to be and also I figured I would mention something totally relevant to the fact that I have no IDEA how exactly far it is to first from third but I know its further than the distance from home to first.

LOL!! Okay, whatever. :D

I like frogs.

Don't know if I would have gone there!!!:eek: :eek: :D :D