LBR question
 

This came up in another discussion forum. After looking at the various rule books and concluding the following, I wanted to run this past you.

Situation:

BR beats throw to 1B and has headed a decent distance past, turns and is walking back towards 1B. F3 returns the ball to F1 in the circle, F1, F3 and F4 all turn their back on the runner getting ready for the next play. BR (now R1, I suppose) breaks for 2B before reaching 1B.

Question: Is this legal...

in NFHS?
in NCAA?
in ASA?

My interpretation is now No, Yes, No. What do y'all say?

Dont' know about NCAA but I agree NO in ASA and FED

When, exactly did:

1) The LBR go into effect, and
2) The runner commit to 1B

(and back these up with a rule)

Rule is the LBR and the interpteration of when the LBR goes into effect was given by someone I trust that it doesn't matter (before BR touches first, or before they return to first) once F1 has ball in circle LBR applies all sections

IOW, this interpretation applies the restrictions of the LBR retroactively to a BR who overruns 1B, rendering this statement in rule 8-7 moot:I've heard the interpretation you stated before. In fact, if memory serves, Mike (Irish) has stated the same. My problem is that that is not what the rule book actually says. In addition, IMO, the LBR for the BR is unnecessarily complicated.

The defense is responsible for getting the ball back to the circle and for paying attention to the runners.

Dakota,

The (ASA) rule book actually says this (in 2007 at least).

I read the NFHS book to be identical. However, the NCAA is quite a bit different.

Yes, but all of that is when the LBR is in effect. If the LBR is not in effect, the rest of the LBR details are moot.

As far as I can tell, these conditions have been met. So what am I missing?

Those conditions were NOT met (specifically F1 having the ball in the circle) at the time the runner overran 1B and made her turn. They were only in effect once the runner was moving back toward 1B. So, to place the restriction on the runner, you have to apply the rule retroactively, since the base committed to depends on which way and how the runner turns after overrunning 1B. Without applying the rule retroactively, you merely have a runner moving toward a base, and she is allowed one stop and then must immediately decide which base to go to.

I don't understand why you think that the BR has to be touching first while F1 has the ball in the circle for LBR to apply. The rule lists several conditions that must be met and doesn't state an order or that they must occur simultaneously.

In fact, I have a hard time reconciling why they would put 8.7.T.3.d-e in the book if the conditions you describe must be met.

I would have been squarely in your camp until I re-read the rule book and found these little ornery statements.

"has touched" or really "has reached" <> "be touching"

I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said F1 has to have the ball in the circle for the LBR to apply, and that whatever happened BEFORE F1 had the ball in the circle is moot for the LBR.

BR overruns 1B, turns (whichever way, I don't care) and heads back to 1B, or angles toward 2B, whatever you want.

AFTER the BR has made her turn and while she is moving toward one base or the other, THEN F1 receives the ball back in the circle.

NOW you want to enforce the LBR based on which way the BR turned BEFORE the rule went into effect?

Really?

What if she heads back to 1B, then moves toward 2B, then heads back toward 1B, and then angles toward 2B again and THEN F1 gets the ball back. Which base, pray tell, is she now committed to under the LBR?

Well, #1, she has placed herself in jeopardy, IMO, but the umpire should consider the direction of the runner at the time the pitcher receives and possesses the ball in the circle as it pertains to the base to which she is committed.

Bingo!

RS 34 Paragraph G mentions Umpires judgement determines what committing to one base or another is on an overrun at first base.

I think I need more info on the OP to make a call on that one. Might be one of those had to see it moments.

Bingo, bango, bongo, and all due respect to Mike, that is not what the rule book says. It says the rule is not in force when the runner is overrunning, turning, zigging and zagging.

The rule is too complex, besides. It offers no real advantage to the defense over the standard rule for runners.

My point in all of this is the rule is obtuse, contradictory, and should be clarified, or even better, scrapped.

A say committed and out as described in the OP. I dont think the rule is vague. NCAA is different, they can go.

ASA and NFHS, out.

What other rule in the book is applied to actions by the player while the rule was not in force?

I'm not sure that anyone has said that the rule is applied while the rule is not in effect. I agree it's not in effect until batter/runner has touched first and pitcher has ball in the circle. What the runner does up to that point doesn't matter (ie turn left/right, etc..). But once all is in effect the BR has to make a quick decision and she puts herself in jeopardy if she doesn't.

What is difficult to determine is what happened in a written post...IMO most of the LBR are HTBT plays.

I also don't find the rule vague. The point is that all conditions for the LBR have been met; ball in circle, BR has passed first, runner has an opportunity to recognize and react immediately.

Let's realize that the BR overrunning first is an exception. In every other case when the LBR goes in affect, a runner is either 1) stopped on a base, and must now judge immediately to leave or stay, putting herself in jeopardy if she leaves, 2) stopped off a base, is in jeopardy, and must judge immediately which direction to move, or 3) in motion between bases, in jeopardy, and may continue to advance or return, with one stop or change of direction available. The one major difference about the BR overrunning first is that these runners are all in jeopardy (well, possible exception of runner stopped on the base that doesn't leave).

In the case of the BR that overruns first, the general rules grant an immunity from jeopardy; that runner may return safely, has an extended opportunity to judge the situation that no one else gets, and, therefore, has been given a shorter leash by the LBR. If the ball gets in circle while that runner is returning without jeopardy, the rule makes that runner make the change of direction immediately upon recognition that conditions have been met. Since this runner is NOT between bases, a stop or reversal is not an option; the choices are to continue to first, thus committing to first, or immediately heading to second. This is only fair to balance the special protection granted the runner returning to first without jeopardy, and gives the defense a fair opportunity to see her decision, then move on when no action is taken.

The NCAA coaches saw it differently; they created a special game situation where the runner gets immunity and still can run a trick play if returning within 3' either side of the foul line. That forces umpires and players to stare at the runner until she fully (and often slowly) returns to the bag and stops. No one can move on; we stand in our calling position, unable to rotate to our starting position for the next play. In a three umpire crew with no other runners, PU stands at attention half way up the foul line, U1 stands in fair territory facing first, and U3 stands on the infield side of 2nd, at attention, simply waiting to be able to rotate to get into next position. It looks like a dummy drill. In ASA of NFHS, since the runner is committed, the players can get relaxed and ready for the next batter, and all but one umpire can begin to rotate to the next position. Play over, move on.

So, the special condition attached to BR overrunning first has a reason, and isn't retroactive; it just requires an immediate reaction from the protected runner when all the conditions are met.

Speaking ASA

What makes you think the LBR is not in effect? Has the BR reached 1B or been retired? Yes. Is the ball in the possession of the pitcher in the circle? Yes.

That's it, the LBR is in effect. The onus is now on the BR which over ran 1B. Their (BR) options are clearly defined in 8.7.T.3

Of course, we could always just get rid of the LBR and kill the play when the umpire judges all play complete :D

OK, here is what is retroactive:

Example: Base hit to shallow left. BR overruns 1B, turns right and is heading back toward 1B. F7 is taking her time with the ball and finally throws it to F1. Immediately after F1 has the ball in the circle, BR breaks for 2B and reaches safely.

Notice: BR had turned right BEFORE the LBR was in effect. F7 still had the ball.

Now, you are saying the BR is commited to 1B because she turned right BEFORE the LBR was in effect? You are calling her out on a LBR violation?

I got an email from one of our members wondering why I was digging myself such a deep hole on this. Occasionally, I go off on a windmill tilting crusade about a rule that is poorly worded, poorly explained in the RS's, etc. (ex: the "blocking the base is obstruction" nonsense). I believe that the game is not harmed in any way whatsoever if the standard LBR was applied to BRs. I don't believe they (the BRs) need to give up anything in exchange for their protection from liability. After all, a try for second is a try for second. They have forfeited their liability; they don't need the umpire to step in and make sure they pay. I also think it is unnecessarily complex with the turn this way or that way, turn and stop, turn and no stop variations. And, finally, by the written rule, in the case of my example above, the rule was not in effect when the BR was doing her turning, yet it was in double secret effect (that it was in effect is left unstated in either the rule or the RS). Goofy.

Thanks for your outstanding summary, Steve.

The 2007 JUCO national champs (Chipola) liked to take advantage of the NCAA interpretation. Their runners would come back down the RF line, looking for the defense to relax. If they saw an opening, they had the green light to break for second.

At the Florida JUCO tournament we ran the "three man dummy drill" a lot. I even got to make a call at second (I was U3) when F4 forgot to cover. Interestingly, the umpires knew their tendencies better than the other teams.

No one has even come close to stating that and your scenario is contradictory to what has been posted, including the OP. You are asking if people would call a runner out on the LBR when it has not yet gone into effect.

Paragraph 3 specifically notes that the ball must be in possession of the pitcher in the circle for any of the subsequent scenarios to be in effect.