Foul Tip/Foul Out
 

ASA rules.

A foul tip goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catchers mitt, and a foul out is if there is any perceivable arc from the bat to the mitt.

Is this correct?

Can someone cite the ASA rule and/or any other official ruling on this issue?

Thanks

GaryB

I don't have by book w/ me, but I believe you have the wording correct. I think if you look in the definitions fair/foul ball, you'll see what you're looking for.

Mid-Mich. Blue

Pg 19-20 cover the definitions of foul tip and foul ball, and rule 8:2:C should cover the out.

ASA RS22 (2007) says the following regarding a foul tip:

I have no clue how many years its going to take for this to be understood and when I can go an entire season without hearing "it didnt go above her head" (or even a single call!).. but probably not for a long time..

Never

That is just part of the game, like when your partner comes to you on a check swing, and you inevitably hear, "But he wasn't even looking."

About as long as it takes umpires to stop posting about being hit with a foul tip.

Or as long as it will take the coach to quit asking if it was Interference on the 3rd baseperson when his runner went around her......Had this the other night? I said "No it was Obstruction, I didn't figure you would want your runner called out for that"

yeah....

*sigh*

H E L L will freeze over first.

I hate umpires that do that. :)

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=43024

Not until all Organizations and Associations are consistent.

DSI (Dixie Youth Softball) 2008 - Definitions

40. FOUL TIP — A foul tip is a batted ball which goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter’s head, to the catcher’s hand(s) and is legally caught by the catcher.

How a batted ball that goes head high can be considered going directly to the catcher's hands is beyond me but it is what I have to call when I do these games. DSI is the only option for girls wanting to play rec ball in my area. Many of these girls play on high school teams and also do travel ball in ASA, NSA, ISA, AA, PONY, etc. and the different rules can be very confusing to them.

The problem with the "not higher than... head" phrase is not that it changes what you call, but that it results in coaches complaining that the out you just called should be a foul tip because the ball stayed below the batter's head.

Except for near-TWP situations (e.g. catcher standing at the TOP), the phrase is irrelevant and does not come into the equation at all.

And of course, for those of us who have actually worked Dixie softball before, we know exactly how goofy their rules can be. (You know, the dropping a flag, and all that other stuff.)

The term foul tip causes so much confusion. It should be renamed a sharp and direct or a bat nip or something that doesn't mention foul.

Why? The ball is foul.

Hmmm...... I'm not convinced that's always true... care to explain?

Why? The ball is foul.

A foul tip usually occurs over and is caught in foul territory, though it doesn't have to be. But as you well know, it's no more a foul ball than a fly ball the left fielder catches in foul territory. The problem is that the word foul is in a term that doesn't refer to a foul ball.

Are we seeing someone who will have trpouble adapting to a new dialect? :p :p :D

The batted ball is still "foul" (as in not fair). That batter NEVER becomes a BR on a foul ball or foul tip. The only difference between the two (foul tip/foul ball) is that the runners may still advance and the defense may still attempt to put them out. The only difference for the batter is that it is still a strike unless it is with two in a FP game. Otherwise, it makes no difference whether it is a foul ball or foul tip.

A foul tip is not a foul ball. It meets none of the 7 criteria under the definition. (And don't even try with "C," which does not refer to a caught ball.) A foul tip is not a foul ball that carries a list of exceptions.

Everybody knows that a foul tip is treated exactly like a missed pitch, and in no way whatsoever like a foul ball.

In fact, there is no requirement that a foul tip enter or be over foul territory at any time. (A batter in the front of the box could nip a ball that goes sharp and direct into the catcher's glove while the glove is over home plate. That is not considered a fly ball caught for an out.)

A foul tip is a batted ball. And just like a fly ball the left fielder catches in foul territory, it is not fair, and it is not foul.

That is why I maintain that applying the label foul tip to a ball that is not foul is misleading.

One of the guys I've worked with even raises the question - "Is there any value in signalling a foul tip? It's just another live ball." And, ya know, I'll signal a foul tip when one happens - but I'm not so sure that there is any value. He raised that question a couple of years ago and I'm still chewing on that.
If F2 moves and catches it before it his the ground, it's a catch & out. If the ball hits the ground, it's just a foul. Hmmmmmmmmm.

I've often pondered that myself.. because it has no value.. but I try to stay in the habit of things in the book so I dont have to hear anything about it.

The NCAA Softball Umpire Manual has this as an optional mechanic.

Now act like you are already in 'Bama and slow down and read what I posted. I specifically noted foul as in not fair. I did not attempt to codify my comment, just making a relation between a ball hit by the bat that qualifies as a foul tip to that of a regular foul ball as it relates to the batter ONLY.

And the results are the same as a foul ball as it refers to the batter. You cannot ignore that the ball did indeed hit the bat. The point of it being a foul tip is, whether we like it or not, the umpire's judgment.

Don't remember making any such reference.

You'll love this. Speaking ASA, by definition, neither a foul tip or a caught fly ball is a "batted ball". A Batted Ball is any pitched ball that hits the bat or is hit by the bat and lands either in fair territory or foul territory. Well, if a ball lands ANYWHERE, it wasn't caught.

In Flight is a term used for any batted, thrown or pitched ball which has not yet touched the ground or some object or person other than a fielder. So, if a batted ball is one that must land, how can it be caught in flight? :confused:

Which brings me back to my original comment. The bat hit the ball. Probably more often than not, the indicator is audible. Everyone hears it, so it cannot just be ignored. There has to be some definition and you cannot call it a "missed tip". And since the ball isn't fair......:rolleyes:

How about a tipped ball?

I remember the discussion about the uselessness of the foul tip signal from a couple of years ago. As I recall, bluezebra was the main proponent of signaling strike only.

The signal has the value of communicating that the umpire knows the bat hit ball and has judged it to be "sharp & direct"; not foul and a live ball.

A totally missed ball is also neither fair nor foul, so that's what this is, a tipped strike.

As noted in another post, the foul tip is often determined by sound. If the foul tip is anywhere near the ground, it is quite possible the catcher is coming up with a cloud of dirt. It can be so close, that sometimes even the catcher isn't sure whether it is a foul tip or foul ball.

Like every other signal we use, it is for those who are not in the immediate vicinity to understand what just occured. It is also an indicator to the teams and coaches of your call and should avoid the "but Blue, she fouled the ball" arguments.

In theory..

Today, foul tip, runner stealing I make tip and strike signal. Runner safe. No play made on her.

"Blue was that a foul tip."
"Yes"
"So doesnt the runner have to go back?"


oh boy.... :D

Well, we are assuming that the coach knows what the signal means ;)

I think so. Had one this year with a runner stealing. Defensive coach heard the "tink." He started to yell something about it being foul, when he saw my partner make a foul tip signal. In one nice move the signal says, "Yes. It was off the bat. Yes. It was sharp and direct to F2's glove. Yes. It was legally caught."

And most importantly, "yes, it is a live ball."