Are bobbie-pins jewelry?
 

NFHS Rules. First play of the game I notice a player is wearing bobbie-pins. I call time tell team A coach there are players wearing jewelry, issue jewelry warning. Second to last pitch of the game (no kidding) I call time and tell team B coach players are wearing jewelry (this time it was an earring). Player wont remove jewelry so she voluntarily sits down and they play short, next pitch game is over. Team B coach thought I should have let it go as it was the second to last play of the game. I told him a caught fly ball is an out if its the first play or the last play of the game, and that I did not want some little girl owning my house because she got hurt after I noticed she was wearing jewelry.

Bobby pins are not jewelry, BUT ther are prohibited head gear. They fall under the hard items in the hair.

MTD, Sr.

NFHS Rule Reference?

3-2-12. (not that I agree with the interpretation).

Recent partner and I go to check bats and hats.

Partner: "Girls, while you're hear, get all that hard stuff outta your hair. No bobby pins, no barettes, no nothing. Get'em out NOW!" (emphasis partner's)

Me: behind partner, turn so nobody can see me, and roll my eyes several times.

At pregame I ask coaches if their players are legally and properly equipped. If Sally loses an ear, she's getting the coach's house, not mine.

If partner forgets to ask...and asks me if I have anything to add...then I ask the question.

You know I agree some umpires become overly officious about this type of stuff. BUT I also agree anything that I can't roll into a ball can't be in your hair. Anyone here think that a hot shot off the bat that takes a bad hop and hits a girl in the side of the head wouldn't force the end of a bobbie pin into the skin and cause a laceration? And not sure all of you have seen or know but NOTHING bleeds like a head wound. Will it puncture the skull and cause permanent brain damage....possibly not...but it will bleed like there is no tomorrow and mommy and daddy sees their angels blond hair all tinged red they start to see green. So ya I ask at pregame and shift it back on the coach, but if I am in the dugout I might mention in my normal laid back attitude "make sure you don't have any of that stupid stuff in your hair that is going to make us bring up that jewelry rule" I hate those types of rules, but I also hate the thought of losing my house (well maybe not, it still needs work:p ) so I mentioned it to the girls and the coaches verified to me they were legal and if I do see something I will mention it to the girl at that time and make them take it off but I don't go looking for it, I got way too much to do to hunt things like that down.

I'm helping coach a U12 girls team. Are the rubber/plastic wrist bands so many of the kids wear considered jewelry?

Thanks

Yes

No

rule reference? I have always been told by every UIC they are considered jewelry, unless medical.

In Maryland, per NFHS rules interpreter, those lance armstrong type wristbands are not permitted. Remove em and warning, etc....

Ron

No, you give me a rules reference that specifically states those items are jewelry.

The last time I checked, NFHS did not have a U12 division.

DING!!!....DING!!!....DING!!!

:cool:

Those things sure can be hard to see and they sure are easy to miss....

Thats my experience anyway.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

What purpose does that serve?

I consider myself an ASA umpire first and if that comment carries a negative connotation (as some might think so), that is not befitting a state ASA UIC. (pg 170, pt 6)


Ron

The question was about a U12 team. NFHS and ASA have a fundamentally different rule and standard of enforcement regarding jewelry. Your NFHS rules interpreter's statement applies ONLY to high school sports, not U12.

There... somewhat longer than ding, ding, but maybe you understand the point.

I did a poor job of writing what I wanted to convey.

I only wanted to convey what the rule was in NFHS concerning the rubber bracelets.

Will try better next time.

Ron

Are you serious?

Webster; Jewelry; personal ornaments made of precious or base metals, and precious or imitation stones.


NFHS; Jewelry; (such as) rings, watches, earrings, bracelets, necklaces (including cloth or string types), barrettes or other hard cosmetics or decorative items. -----Livestrong MAY be a decorative item, but it's not hard.


ASA; Jewelry; (use common sense) If deemed dangerous (to other players inferred) must be removed.


I understand the NFHS "hard line stand", and will enforce, but ASA (and others) is much more game friendly.

Speaking NFHS...

Aren't these things bracelets?

I think one thing to remember is that the 2nd question was posted as a u12 team. They did not say what rule set, several leagues use NFHS rules so I fail to see why some are disregarding this rules information, it might be the only that fits this discussion.

I see Irishs point for ASA, although I think the better more informative answer would be in ASA it is umpires judgement if they feel it is dangerous it must be removed.

Lance Armstrong braclets were adressed at the NUS this year and it was said to have them removed. NFHS had the same stance. So I am having them removed if they want to play.

Could be, but they don't really follow Mr Websters definition of "jewelry" do they? For that matter, neither do cloth or string thingies!

Bottom line, We are discussing two seperate and distinct orginizations, ASA and NFHS. One says remove it, and is interpreted as no leeway, one says use common sense.

If you are calling a 12U ASA game, and deem the Livestrong bands as dangerous, then have them removed. If you are calling NFHS, it doesn't matter what you think, have them removed.

In NFHS all jewelry in ALL sports is removed by rule. In ASA JO Softball the participants are minors and as such can not make a proper decision as to what is safe and unsafe. It should be up to their coaches and parents, but in the interest of my own personal safety ALL jewelry, including Lance's yellow band, is removed when they play.
We talk and talk about preventive officiating what is more preventive than requiring JO participants to remove their jewelry. As to adults -- they're adults (although most of us will agree that they clearly don't act adult like) and as adults they can decide for themselves what is dangerous or not.

Do you have anything written to back that up?

Probably not, but so often, a lot of what's said at clinics and schools is not written down.

Sure the rule has been stated above. FED is clear, have them take it all off, ASA it was a suggestion/interpretation from a highly ranking NUS Supervisor. Of course it is your judgement, and like all other judgement calls they are not able to be appealed, but it was his opinion that only bad things can happen when they are left on, nothing bad can happen when they are removed, why not remove the chance of something bad happening?

Everyone has gone round and round here bottom line is it your judgement in ASA what is dangerous, if you want it gone either it is taken off or they don't play. What is dangerous is up to you but it is also up to you how much you leave yourself open to a discussion if someone does get hurt and "you let them play with that on" granted we always have the I never saw it statement. I think there are more important issues to address than this both on this forum and on the field. If you think it is dangerous have it removed or the player dont play...if you let it go and they get hurt in this sue happy world know you are open to a lawsuit, might not lose in court over it but you could be pulled into court over it, and who wants to miss a chance to umpire a game over some stupid thing like that???

Actually, ASA says to use umpire judgment. As we can readily see from the various threads in this very discussion board, those are NOT the same thing! :D :rolleyes:

And that's the real key - know what sanctioning body you're working under for the game and follow their stance, whether you agree with that stance or not.

re: Livestong

I had a girl remove one yesterday. She apologised and said that she forgot to take it off before the game - in other words, they already know it's consider jewlery, at least around here.

Agree with Stu, local customs are to basically handle them both in accordance with Fed rules. basically there is not much umpire judgement in JO around jewelry

Okay, now that I've got things stirred up :rolleyes:

Yes, I took advantage of the thread hijack referring to an U12 team to chime in.

The "jewelry" rules are very vague and this allows umpires to get creative, sometimes to the extreme, concerning what constitutes a piece of jewelry.

Sometimes I wonder if umpires "declare" something to be jewelry because they truly believe the piece in question is dangerous or whether it just makes their life easier to zap everything.

I don't believe it would be a stretch to state that the reason for such a rule has been obliterated over the years. Some of the reasoning for declaring something dangerous has reached the level of some TWPs.

The only logical reason to eliminate/restrict/forbid jewelry is for the safety of the player(s). Is there really a valid reason to forbid wearing a rubber band/bracelet? How is that going to injure a player?

Personally, I worry more about what will injure an opposing player as opposed to something that may only be harmful to the wearer.

Actually, in JO, BY RULE, it is 100% umpire judgment.

Actually I will be the first to admit that, as Mike stated, it is easier to "zap everything." At least then it is fairly uniform across the board and all coaches are expecting it. My biggest one this season are those rubber band type things that they use to keep their hair back. Many times they will take them and put them around their neck. I tell them if it is in your hair fine but I do not want it hanging around your neck. After reading this I take it many would think I was wrong about that.

Not necesssarily. Would you not make a player wear a headband as it was intended instead of around the neck?

Absolutely, That is my thinking on it.

Player slides into 2nd as 2nd tags. As runner slides fielder's fingers catch into the band. The band could break a finger or wrist. Not worth the risk to me. In fact, I think a regular chain bracelet is safer than the rubber bracelets, at least the chain will break, the rubber ones won't.

You're kidding, right? :eek: What was I saying about TWPs?:confused:

Thank you for proving my point.

Its not easier to conduct continuous person inspections.. its a drag. Sometimes I have partners who are nonstop with the jewelry.. with the perfect tucked shirt.. with this with that.. then they go farther and kind of accuse me as if I need to hold their same OOO "values".

Its easier to allow the "girl tuck" for shirts, especially when batting.. and to maybe not be so observant about jewelry unless it truly is dangerous...

I'm just not into running around nonstop, calling time continuously, and dealing with this stuff ad nauseum.

You know what I'm picky about while these umps are so worried they are conducting under bandaid inspections.. keeping those girls in the dug out so they dont get creamed with a foul ball.. and other issues where I have seen them get hurt.. .not this urban legend 1/1,000,000 type injuries that get dreamed up.

And then, top it off.. these same ump go to a mens game...

Suddenly that stuff is not so dangerous.. because its like a bling festival at those games.

I agree, wade. We can dream up all sorts of circumstances where players can get injured by everything from their necklaces to their shoelaces. Gotta draw a line somewhere.

And yeah, those bling-fests don't last long on my field, either.

No Argument from me
 

I agree with you Mike. :cool: Having said that, the local UIC is also the assignor for both NFHS and ASA JO. I like the guy. I think he does a good job. He said do it this way I do it his way. I get lots of work. I can give up my judgement on this to his ....:)

Aren't these things bracelets?

Could be, but they don't really follow Mr Websters definition of "jewelry" do they?

Have not checked the unabridged version yet but I think they Mr. Encyclopedia and Mr Anthropologist would consider them as bracelets.

Ron

Didn't break her finger when it happened at a game I was watching. But close enough it had to be x-rayed. So, no I'm not kidding.

Then I guess they should also outlaw laced gloves, shoe laces, pull strings on the player's pants, braided hair, shoulder straps....never mind, wasting my breath.

And bases and pitcher plates...

NFHS rule states no jewelry or decorative items, that is exactly what those items are like it or not. I personally don't care what they wear but the rules say no I say no.

And I'm wasting my breath with you as well.

Hey, its NFHS. The only way they would allow the girls to wear armstrong bands would be if the boys had been allowed to wear them for years.

Could you please explain that to my three stepgrandchildren who don't have a paternal grandfather? He was basically garotted by his chain while sliding into second base. He left two young sons and a wife who was carrying their daughter.

I might let something else slide, but nothing around the neck gets by.

Perhaps you misread my post...it said bracelets not necklaces. Sorry for your loss.

moving right along now :)