Ur Call
 

This was sent in by a fan.


for all you "wanna-be" umps out there....YOU MAKE THE CALL!

Coach makes official substitution with plate umpire. However-girl she subs for is already on base. The "substitute" goes to box...takes called ball 1. Opposing team goes to umpire...asks what the substitution was...umpire pulls out his sheet...says #? for #?....coach tells umpire...that cant be...because the girl being subbed for is "on base". Her sub just took called ball 1.

? - is runner out...or is batter out? or is anybody out? batting out of order? something/anything wrong here?

u make the call!

Just to gum things up, NFHS, ASA or Brand X?

Daughter, so this is FED....Not my Daughter.

Let's say "girl she subs for" was the starter in #6 slot and was the most recent batter.
Then, "substitute goes to box", essentially batting in the #7 slot. The sub belongs in the #6 slot, so she is BOO. She has taken a pitch, which allows the appeal, but she is just replaced by the proper batter who assumes the 1-0 count.
Also, the sub replace the starter on the bases.

Now, is there also a problem with the starter staying on base during that one pitch, essentially being an unreported sub for the real sub?

My granddaughter does play, but was not involved in this game. I have only
done one of her games and that was in tournament play and due to the
start time of our game, could not be replaced. Informed both coaches that
my GD played on one of the teams. Neither had a problem. I did have to
call and inforce obstruction in her favor when the second base person impeded her progress to 3rd and knowing her speed, I knew she would have easily obtained 3B.

Only if a previous warning had been received by the offending team.

OK, but doesn't "the starter staying on base during that one pitch, essentially being an unreported sub for the real sub" initiate the warning?

How about preventative umpiring and not letting the coach make that change? I know, I know, that isn't our job. It sure may save some heartache though. Dave

I won't say it can"t, but don't think it would happen in my game. I keep
pretty good records, and do try and prevent these situtations. Using dots
and dashes. I always know who batted last in an inning and who is due
up.

Why would we say that the batter is BOO?

Can we not say that the *actual* substitution was *not* for the runner on base, but the player after that runner. After all, that's what physically happened, correct?

If so, then this is merely an unreported substitute, and if discovered and appealed while the unreported sub is at bat, then no one is out, but the batter is declared ineligible, and is replaced by a legal player. (Rule 4, Sec.8g, ISF).

The bottom line here is what is the substitution? What the manager SAYS, or what the MANAGER does?

As I was writing the end of my above reply, I realized the answer:

It is what the Manager SAYS, not DOES.

After all, he can have players coming in and out, and if he doesn't say anything, they are all unreported subs, which can get him in trouble. Otherwise, why require him to report anything at all.

Yup, it's what he SAYS, is what counts.

Why don't we have an illegal player at 1B? If Ashley is not in the game, why is she on the field?

But if Ashley is not an illegal player, than she is an unreported sub. She returned to the game for Ashley.

If that is true, then Betty at bat is an illegal player. She previously subbed for Ashley, now is an unreported sub for Kalie, who is next to bat.

But if Betty is a correct, unreported sub, then she is in again for Ashley. So what is Ashley still doing on the field? She has used up her eligibility.

Wait a minute, isn't this were we came in?

I think I would take the easy way out; tell everyone it was my mistake and I am using my umpire authority to correct it - send Ashley to the bench, Betty to 1B, and bring up Kalie with 0 - 1 count.

WMB

How's this:

As soon as the manager reported the sub to the PU, and the PU noted it in his line up card, the sub has officially entered the game and the runner has officially left the game. (3-3-3)

Once the ball is declared live with the starter still on base and the sub at bat, the starter has re-entered the game unreported. (also 3-3-3)

This makes the batter now an illegal substitute (since she entered previously for, say, the #6 slot and is now batting in the #7 slot). She is restricted to the bench and declared out. The starter is back in the game and has used up her re-entry rights.

I like this answer for the specific situation, but what if Betty gets a base hit, advancing runners one base, instead of taking ball 1?

What I really like is having an 0-1 count after a "called ball 1"! :p :)

You call ball 1, 2 etc. I just normally call ball, or strike...:p :o

I suspect he was ribbing WMB over "0-1" for 1 ball, no strikes.

I do remember, BTW, someone posting awhile ago on one of the boards about an umpire who insisted on using the opposite hands to signal the count "so the pitcher would see them in the correct order..." :rolleyes: :p

ur call
 

we have an illegal substitution and an unreported sub. that is my understanding of the write up.
1 out -the batter in the box who restricted to the splinter bench
1 warning-just like one out when two runners violating look back rule

2-57-3
3-3-5
3-4-1a

Dakota has the same thing. had not read that one carefully. oh well. i came up with it on my own. so i feel good too.:)

for those who went to the Central Atlantic ASA clinic. What did Luau Bowers say about preventive umpiring? word does not exist as you are preventing the other team from having a violation enforced. However they tell us not to let it happen. Mind boggling. sure wish somebody would make his or her mind up. kind of reminds me of who's on first? out to have a rule book with never call this although it is in the rule book. you know what they say--if you ain't gonna enforce it, then don't write it.

Of course he also told us that in a ASA National tournament the third base umpire called an illegal pitch on a fielder not in fair territory. The ump got the royal screwing but has worked the 2 College World Series since that. You follow the damn rules and get banged anyways.

It's more likely the PU who allowed a pitch with the player in foul territory was gigged for this. But same if the third base umpire knew the player was out of position and allowed play to continue.

For preventative umpiring to happen, the umpire has to notice the preventable violation ahead of time or as it is ABOUT to happen. In the OP, the PU did not notice that the player being subbed for was on base until it was protested by the opposing coach after the ball had been declared live (in fact, after a pitch). It is too late to prevent anything by then. I can hear the mental "oh $hit" when he looks at his line up card... His instinct would probably be to make the adjustment that WMB suggested. But, by the book, it is an illegal and unreported sub, and the penalties are there in the book, too.

Glen, do you know what the on-the-field ruling was?

Do not know the particulars, Mike. Do know that the UIC of the ASA tournament said that the umpire should not have let the play happen. So maybe the umpire saw the violation with enough time to halt a pitch. I know what I will do if i see it: Time!!!!!!!!

The umpire is a UIC coordinator for one of the college associations in our neck of the woods.

Ron

Yes, A do-over in actually. Put sub on 1B, continued with batter. This was
in a JV tournament, so coaches did not actually know or care.