Your line up card
 

How many of you use the Lineup Management System?

Our association is recommending it's use. It definitely makes for a cleaner/neater line up card. I like the built in checks and balances.

I was curious how many of you use it and your opinion of the system - I see the advantages, is there any downside?

I do, it is awesome.

I take one line up card and write "green" (or whatever color they are) at the top.. and do the same to the other.. kinda wad them/fold them up and smoosh them into my ball bag kinda inside the line up card holder. I have found this to be a wonderful Lineup Management System with an unbelieveable ease of use.

And just what, pray tell, is the Lineup Management System? And how much does it cost?

MTD, Sr.

It costs $5,000. Cash or money order. Once I have the money, I'll send you the system. ;)


Actually, I think they are referring to the system credited to Emily Alexander and documented in a ppt presentation on the Cactus Umpires web site: http://www.cactusumpires.com/pdf/lin...t-ASA-NFHS.ppt

It seems that every once in a while we revisit this topic. Yes, I have been using Emily's system for years, and also teach it to umpires in our association so that in the event that a game has to be continued at some point without the same umpires, a quick glance at the lineups will tell the story of the game. It is a good system.

One of our members on this board, though I can't recall who just now, actually developed a line-up card that works perfectly with the system.

I use it, love it, works great. NCAA requires you to use it, so I just carry it down to the NFHS and ASA stuff.

Can't quite get our UIC and training staff (yes, I'm even ON the training staff) to teach it... something about 'it's not approved for ASA and NFHS so we shouldn't teach it until they come out and say it's required.'

Oh well. When individuals ask me what I use, I teach them... and give them the powerpoint presentation. We just don't educate the masses with it... yet.

Yeah, that was me. I use the EA system; luv it. I developed a two sided card in Excel. I print it on 110 lb paper. One side for home, opposide side for visitors. Easily fits under the clip in my Honigs folder.

Yes, it takes a minute or two per game to fill out. But when I open my folder, I always have the same size line-up document that looks the same today as it did six weeks ago. I can have the changes posted and announced typically before I can even unfold the assorted sized papers and then I am not sure which one to use.

It is great for line-up management, especially when using DP/FLEX, and very handy in summer tournaments where coaches are under more pressure to get everyone in the game. Of course, if you only have 9 or 10 players to start a game, it is a bit of overkill.

Contact me at [email protected] and I'll email it to you.

WMB

Next time you hear that, ask "them" which system IS approved for ASA or NFHS.

That is as ridiculous as not working a 4-umpire system at the top level of ASA's youth game because there is no mechanics for it in the book.

I guess all those 4 & 6 umpire games I worked didn't count ;)

I'll hand to you guys who would take the time to rewrite the line up cards and all this time consuming stuff.

I'm really not sure what the point is.. but its definitely big time extra effort.

WMB stated "looks as good today as months ago..."

Do you guys keep your line up cards? I throw em away pretty much right after the game or as I'm getting ready for the new game, unless there is a serious incident.. what is the point of keeping them?

Well, I get more lineup papers than "cards". And, I use them to line the bottom of my equipment bag. Except for the ones that I use to test the water-fastness of the ink when I wash my pants / ball bags. :D

Yes. It was you! Sorry I forgot. I am still using your line-up cards. Wonder how I ever got along without them.

I've been "told" that "there is no approved system for ASA or NFHS." The response was that it's up to each umpire to develop their own system that works for them. This was especially emphasized at our regional clinic by Kevin, Julie, Malcom, and especially Lori when she presented lineup management. She made a specific point of telling the group that ASA was NOT using Emily's lineup system (at this time)... so she was not teaching it specifically.

I just have one question... how does a person "present lineup management" in an umpire clinic without addressing the practical issues of how to do lineup management? That had to be a rather pointless consumption of time on the agenda, I would think.

Come on Wade, calm down. If your partner reads off the nine starting numbers, and then the nine starting positions - how long does it take for you to write that on a lineup card? Be serious - 10 to 15 seconds is not big time extra effort! (and another 15 seconds the next half inning for the home team coming to bat.)

When I look at today's card, it looks just like the one I used a month ago. When you look at a lineup card, it doesn't even look like the second one you received for the same game, and neither one looks like the ones your received in the last game!

Consistancy, and intimate knowledge of your card cuts down on the time spent making lineup changes. That is significant compared to the minor time spend preparing the card in the first place.

WMB

Wade:

WMB is correct. You can have the card ready in under a minute, no problem. Yet, during the game it probably saves you a minute with each substitution. We always stress game management, this is just another tool to achieve that end.

"blue 12 for 25"..
Me "ok" then to Score keeper "12 for 25"
In 95% of the cases, thats how long it takes.. not sure how you can save a minute off of that.

Even the whole partner thing, if my partner asked me too read him the names off the line up card, that would be irritating.

i'm not ribbing you guys, i do think its a little extra effort you guys are willing to do.. FOR ME, I dont see the point, but it still has a slice of "attaboy" on it. I dont think there is anything wrong with it.

I'm glad you noticed that.

It was a clusterphuck. She tried to take something that worked and turned it into something confusing that didn't work.

That particular point got the NUS a LOT of comments on the evals... hopefully they take note.

How can anyone tell you that ASA is NOT using something after you have just been told that ASA has no standard or approved method?

Sometimes you have to wonder what these people eat for breakfast to become so smart.

Not really. Line up management is just on facit of game management. If both are coverd in a clinic, the management of the line up can be offered separately than the issues surrounding the need to properly manage a line up.

However, as I recently discovered, when doing so, it is best to have the clinician giving the line-up management stick strickly to that and allow the clinician giving game management to address the importance of the line up card.

We didnt have anything about Line Up at NUS.

Probably the only reason it was discussed at your NUS is that system you use. Not only was it not discussed.. I've never seen it in use anywhere, and I only even heard about it on this MB the few times its been discussed.

Must be an east coast thing.

Being fortunate enough to live in the same city as Emily, and sitting under her mentoring and teaching for my entire softball umpiring career, I have attended her lineup management class a few times.

She schedules one evening in late February every year to strictly discuss lineups and lineup card management.

She has made a statement every year that I have attended that says that this is not the "official" or "accepted" or "recommended" way of keeping a lineup card, just the method she has put together. Of course, with her reputation and background, everybody immediately accepts her system as the best.

Personally, I do not follow her system to the letter, but use some pieces of it to keep my lineup card. It works for me and could be followed by another umpire if necessary.

I also use a red ink pen for my markings on the card. Very few coaches fill out their lineups with red ink, so my markings stand out.

......................

Just like a cali-nian. Everything east of San Bernardino County is "back east."

It is the first time I've heard of Pheonix being referred to as "east coast" though. That's pretty extreme even for a left coaster.

You don't usually have two line-up sheets folded in your wallet that you have to unfold, verify is the correct one...etc? This card has both line-ups on one card.

Also, do you not notify coaches of line-up changes? (The card doesn't save time with that, I just noticed you omitted it.)

The card is a time saver, but if you wish to keep doing things your way, I totally understand. It was just a tool that WMB sent a few years ago, and I gave it a try. First couple of times out, I wasn't a fan either. But as I perfected my way of using it, I really like it. I am not trying to sell anyone on it though. Umpires have been doing it your way for years.

ha!

oops...

OK, must be desert thang.

"unwad" is a closer term :D

The issue is not the card; it is using the EA system. The positive of that system is to be able to look at your lineup card and instantly "see" the entire lineup status - who is in the game, who is not, who can enter or reenter, who cannot, whether DP/FLEX is in game or out, who has run for the catcher, and who is eligible to run.

Emily uses a series of symbols to provide this information; to make it work effectly requires a lineup card in a specified format. It will not work on the multiplicity of forms you receive from coaches, from postage stamps to 8 1/2 x 11 computer printouts to toilet paper!

IF - you want to use her system you must use a preformatted card, and you must copy from the coach's handouts to your card. That is the question each umpire must answer: if the system has value to you, it has to be worth the extra effort of printing and cutting out cards and transferring the info at game time.

My only role has been to design a card to meet the system, lay out six cards per 8.5 x 11 sheet, and work out front/back layouts that actually match up when you run the paper through your printer the second time. Then I created a 4" x 11" tri-fold WORD doc that contains the basic instructions and a copy of a marked up card. Easy document to carry for quick reference to the "system."

IF you want to use the EA system, I will give you my spread sheet and Word document for you to print your own cards.

Otherwise, stay with your own system and leave behind the scarcasm for those that are open to new ways. Remember, once upon a time umpires wore ballon protectors. http://forum.officiating.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

WMB

And, once upon a time umpires used a mask and hat instead of a hockey-style helmet.

Oh, wait.... :eek: some of us afraid of change types still do... :cool:

I've learned the system and the symbology and use much of it with any coach's favorite lineup sheet. I agree it works best (or most effectively, as you say) with the card designed for it, but key parts of it can be used with just about any card.

I can understand it as a time saver, but I will never rewrite a coach's line up. We are all human and make mistakes. I'll deal with two pieces of paper, neatly folded and placed in a line-up card holder. If the teams have to wait and extra 15-20 seconds for me to make a change, so be it.

I have my only little way of maintaining the line-up, but I do not teach them and refer anyone who asks to cactusumpires.com.

And what about the time it takes for you to retrieve a writing instrument and line-up card from pocket/bag, record the change and return them to their respective place?

I imagine that would be the case with any system, unless this stuff is recorded via miraclization on the emily system... I was addressing the statement that saves a minute.

One thing I hate about line ups is that coaches write the substitution players name in the sub spot, so there is no room to record subs. Rewriting it would help that.. and you could just use numbers if you rewrote it. Still seems this would be a case of diminished returns.

This is what would keep me from using this - If I rewrite a coach's lineup card onto my own, I could screw it up. I've got each card/paper neatly folded with the team name showing when I open the holder.
I use EA's system when doing softball and have for several years. It works.
AND, if my game is suspended, the next umpire can easily pick up my lineup cards and use them.
When doing a baseball game, I continue to use the A-B-C method that I used to use for both games.

If you are referring to a "card" which has lines specifically designated for starters and subs, don't accept it.

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

lol, DOh!!

That thought actually never occurred to me. We could get the game going while he learns how to fill out a line up card, so no time would be wasted on this dummy. It drives me nuts, but I actually never considered just simply making the coach rewrite it.

Well I downloaded the System off of Cactus Umpires.. holy moly!!!! An 80 slide power point LOL!

Come on!!!!

Way to0 complicated... Do you know all these anal things umpires do affect and slow down an entire tournament.. you know that one field that is 20-40 mins behind by the end of the day so everyone is waiting.. EVEN IN A DROP DEAD Tourney! Honestly, it is outrageous.

You guys quit screwing around with lame stuff and get going.

Allow me to present how you properly do a line up card
Write the team color and coaches name at top (if not there)

Write in the sub... yep, you guesed it! cross them off when they are used...


http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/9...eupcardtg5.gif

What is the deal? Whats the problem? Why complicate it? WHY???? Circles and Algebraic computations.. it is NOT rocket surgery, quit goofing off.

:cool:

While I'm on the subject, The people who goof around figuring ways to complicate things.. and thus affecting an entire tournament.. also have a 10 minute pregame.

So along with my advice on line ups... this is how you properly conduct a pregame for standard timed tourney pool play..

Stand in position and yell "Coaches captains".. note who gets there first. If someone is lagging yell a few times.. then if you have to, start without them... they'll see you started it and come-a-runnin


QUICKLY go over any tourney specific rules you have too..
If it is game 4 of the day, you dont need to do any of that THEY KNOW IT.. just say "we all know time limits and run ahead rules right?".. they will say yes, even if they dont, thankfully.

This line up official coach?
This line up official coach?
Give it a scan, make sure all is cool.
"Ok coach, any problems in the game, call time and we'll talk."
Any questions? 95% there will be none.

TELL the one who got there first "Call it in the air".. they call it.. you have your answer.

We dont flip the coin twice to determine who calls it or ask and let them debate for 3 minutes about who gets to call it.. the one who hustles calls it, period. If there is a coach on one side and a coach and a player on the other side, an alternative is to always let the player call it. Dont ask and dont goof around, you decide.

"Ok coach, take the field, I'm starting the timer".

Wait a little bit to actually start it, giving them a little bit...but not long! Definitely start it.. we're not waiting on them and we are not waiting for the first pitch.. this is not Nationals, get going.

No talking about sportsmanship, no asking them if they are equipped no speeches, no ground rules unless something REAL unusual is there and MUST be addressed, no inspections to make sure someone doesnt have an ear ring hidden under a bandaid. JUST GIT ER DONE!

OK end of my rant, you guys really need to quit goofing around and complicating things.

Did you actually read the presentation?

Quick... what are most of the slides there talking about? (Hint... it ain't the lineup card....)

^^^^^^

Agree--- we had a presentation at an early meeting and I was lost/bored after a half a minute of it. I simply write a sub's number where she enters the batting order and strike a line through her name on the sub list. If she leaves the game I put a line through her number in the batting order. If her number shows up again (re-enters)it is not rocket science to know she can't do it again.
99.9999% of the time there are no problems--even with the Flex/DP. If I ever have a VERY rare time that there is a problem, I'll simply stop play-get both books together and hash it out. It is rare as most high school teams here have so few players that substitutions are not a problem.
Oh--my Honig's "Trip Card" has a place for Courtesy Runners on the back and I use that. There are a few teams that use courtesy runners and I usually thank coaches who do especially for the catcher as it speeds up the games a bit. I wish we would just go to a "speed up rule" like was used when I did college/JUCO ball in CNY.

Wade,
See what Tom said about the powerpoint presentation - it's still a really good system.
Your pre-game is similar to mine, however we've got some differences
1-I review each lineup card completely
2-as for the flip, 3B side is heads, 1B side is tails
3-Ground rules typically take me 30 seconds or so to review by taking them around the field.
Since it's tournament ball, I agree with you about the sportsmanship & equipment & jewelry.

My pregame is similar. However, I don't yell for coaches. I have a partner. He gets one, I get the other. I also don't say, "Ok coach, any problems in the game, call time and we'll talk." or anything like it. Also, the coach on my left is always heads. They don't call, and there is no double flip. 50-50 chance either way.

Hey that's a good way too! I hate when I'm not PU and I'm standing there while they do the Chip and Dale Chipmunk thing: no you call- no you call -after you- oh no after you- well how many miles did you come? ok your farther - but youre wearing blue, so we'll let red call it - well does anyone WANT visitors, no I dont want visitors, i want home, well I dont care if they REALLY want home I guess well take visitors..... FLIP THE FRIGGIN COIN ALREADY JEEZ

I did not go through all 80+ pages.. The beginning was mostly rules.. then algebraic calculus computations to somehow allegedly insure no one gets illegally subbed... After getting the gist of it, I closed it down. So if there was a climactic ending such as "HAHAHA Just kidding, look just cross of the subs" .. I missed it.

Emily is a WAY advanced umpire and what works for her wouldnt necessarily work for the rest of earth.. I would never show that system to a new umpire.

Now I thought that this was about the simplest "standard" way of taking care of the lineup. The way I used to do this was equally simple - but - it left some room for doubt/question if a game was suspended and somebody else got to finish it. Maybe due to the real job, I think in terms of verification and recoverability by somebody else.

And that is where a system like EA's is invaluable.

Well, since you got the gist of it, you then know the presentation was mostly about the substitution rules, and especially DP/FLEX.

Teaching the lineup card system to someone who does not need the instruction on the rules would take about 3 slides. Maybe 2.

Thanks for e-mailing it to me. Got it on some heavy paper and used it this
weekend in Baton Rouge Tournament.

And how did it go? The first few times I used it, it took some getting used to. I did some personal tweaking as to how I recopied the lineups, but it is worth it after you adjust.

I modified it some, but found it to work very well. Things went good.

Try it agin this weekend in Sulphur, La. tournament.