Double Switch??

[slowballbaker]

I know the double switch rule applies in the game of baseball, but is there a double switch rule in fastpitch softball?

Thanks

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by slowballbaker

I know the double switch rule applies in the game of baseball, but is there a double switch rule in fastpitch softball?

Thanks

Well, I guess I'll ask, what is a "double switch"?

[JEL]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Well, I guess I'll ask, what is a "double switch"?

May not have it correct, but I have always thought that (in NL w/o DH) a manager would change the pitcher who may be due to bat next inning, and a position player who batted last inning. Put the new pitcher in the slot where he won't be called on for a trip to the plate next inning, and the position player in the ex-pitchers batting slot.

I never knew this to be a "Double Switch Rule", just a way to keep a relief pitcher from having to bat. Wouldn't want to strain (or injure) a pitcher earning a gazillion bucks agame by having him do something as mundane as batting!

It would be legal to do this in the softball game, but with the DP/FLEX rule, re-entry rule, and also the fact that most pitchers hit as well as the rest of the team, the double switch is rare.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by JEL

May not have it correct, but I have always thought that (in NL w/o DH) a manager would change the pitcher who may be due to bat next inning, and a position player who batted last inning. Put the new pitcher in the slot where he won't be called on for a trip to the plate next inning, and the position player in the ex-pitchers batting slot.

I never knew this to be a "Double Switch Rule", just a way to keep a relief pitcher from having to bat. Wouldn't want to strain (or injure) a pitcher earning a gazillion bucks agame by having him do something as mundane as batting!

It would be legal to do this in the softball game, but with the DP/FLEX rule, re-entry rule, and also the fact that most pitchers hit as well as the rest of the team, the double switch is rare.

Speaking ASA

Since the only place where being a pitcher on offense is recognized is as it pertains to a courtesy runner, and with the participation rules Jel noted, I would agree that there is no real need, let alone a rule, for such a thing in softball.

For that matter, I find it hard to believe there is a "rule" pertaining to such a thing in baseball.

[Skahtboi]

Something tells me, that if the OP is expecting a rule to apply to it, they are not talking about what you two are talking about. Though I agree with the both of you about what traditionally a "double switch" is.

[AtlUmpSteve]

The only thing that makes a "double switch" in baseball anything other than standard use of substitution rules while replacing two or more players at once, is that (at least according to the talking heads) the manager must tell the plate umpire before he crosses the lines that the two subs are not batting in the same positions as the starters they appear to be replacing (pitcher for pitcher, position player for same position player). Otherwise, this just a multiple substitution, and the coach must report the subs, and who they replace, without any requirement that limits when it is reported.

[BlitzkriegBob]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The only thing that makes a "double switch" in baseball anything other than standard use of substitution rules while replacing two or more players at once, is that (at least according to the talking heads) the manager must tell the plate umpire before he crosses the lines that the two subs are not batting in the same positions as the starters they appear to be replacing (pitcher for pitcher, position player for same position player). Otherwise, this just a multiple substitution, and the coach must report the subs, and who they replace, without any requirement that limits when it is reported.

Steve, you're right about umpiring needing to be informed prior to the substitution. However, the only thing I'm not sure about is whether or not the line actually comes into play. I remember once watching Phil Garner, about to do a double switch, take just a few steps out of the Astros dugout, motioning to the bullpen, and I could just sense Cecil Cooper yelling at him to report it to the PU first. It was too late however, and the pitcher had to lead off the next inning. I would agree that this is more of a strategy question than a rules question, though obviously there is some procedure that needs to be followed.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob

Steve, you're right about umpiring needing to be informed prior to the substitution. However, the only thing I'm not sure about is whether or not the line actually comes into play. I remember once watching Phil Garner, about to do a double switch, take just a few steps out of the Astros dugout, motioning to the bullpen, and I could just sense Cecil Cooper yelling at him to report it to the PU first. It was too late however, and the pitcher had to lead off the next inning. I would agree that this is more of a strategy question than a rules question, though obviously there is some procedure that needs to be followed.

Personally, I see not reason for such a ridiculous "rule". A substitution is a substitution and as long as it is reported to the umpire, what difference does it make who goes in for whom. It's not like a reentry where a player is restricted to a certain spot in the line-up.

Sounds to me like something that became a rule because a certain manager didn't agree with it when being outcoached by another team and had enough pull to get sour grapes rule installed.

[3afan]

isn't the "double switch" just a sub??? its not a "rule" ...

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by 3afan

isn't the "double switch" just a sub??? its not a "rule" ...

Not just a sub, two subs.

One with onions, one w/o.

But yes, why the fuss, sub A for player 1, sub B for player 2? Batting order is all that matters. not field positions (apparently except MLB).

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Personally, I see not reason for such a ridiculous "rule". A substitution is a substitution and as long as it is reported to the umpire, what difference does it make who goes in for whom. It's not like a reentry where a player is restricted to a certain spot in the line-up.

Sounds to me like something that became a rule because a certain manager didn't agree with it when being outcoached by another team and had enough pull to get sour grapes rule installed.

This is not some unique baseball thing. The same problem can easily arise in a softball game. If a team is on defense and a coach calls time and puts in two new players in the field, he can have them bat in the spot for the player they are replacing on defense (which is the default way of handling it) -or- the coach can inform the plate umpire that the substitutes are actually going to occupy different spots in the batting order. For instance, the new F4 is going to occupy F1's spot in the batting order and the new F1 is going to occupy F4's spot in the order.

If the coach doesn't specify this, the umpire can assume that the new F1 is taking the old F1's spot in the order and the new F4 is going to take the old F4's spot.

No new or special rule is required. After all, an umpire doesn't really care where the players play defensively, he only cares where they are going to bat in the order.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

After all, an umpire doesn't really care where the players play defensively, he only cares where they are going to bat in the order.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Which is why the batting order determines the substitutions, not the defense positions. Umpires only need to know defense positions for CR eligibility.

IOW, when SubA for Player2 and SubB for Player5 are reported, they are recorded by the BO, not by defense positions. SubA would then bat in the #2spot and SubB would bat in the #5 spot regardless of where they are on defense.

Of course, sometimes we have to ask "which for which?" when told "Jess and Katy for Melissa and Heather".

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The only thing that makes a "double switch" in baseball anything other than standard use of substitution rules while replacing two or more players at once, is that (at least according to the talking heads) the manager must tell the plate umpire before he crosses the lines that the two subs are not batting in the same positions as the starters they appear to be replacing (pitcher for pitcher, position player for same position player). Otherwise, this just a multiple substitution, and the coach must report the subs, and who they replace, without any requirement that limits when it is reported.

What you say is absolutely true. Some of you may recall that Dusty Baker, when coaching the Chicago Cubs, made a "double switch" and forgot to tell the umpire that the new fielder was taking the pitcher's spot in the order, and vise versa. The other team was wise to this and he ended up getting nailed for a batting-out-of-order violation since the umpire assumed it was a pitcher-for-pitcher, fielder-for-fielder substitution - since he was never told differently.

Here's the description of the incident:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...63/ai_n6108386

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by slowballbaker

I know the double switch rule applies in the game of baseball, but is there a double switch rule in fastpitch softball?

Thanks

"Double switch" is a common term used in baseball, and is most commonly used with regards to substitutions done in the National League due to the fact that the pitcher must bat for himself.

Yet, a "double switch" can be performed in the American League or in any softball game, for that matter.

When a coach brings in two substitutes at the same time, he must specify where they are batting in the order (or, for whom they are substituting.)

Example: Let's say a team is currently on defense. The coach is already thinking ahead of the half inning when his team comes in to bat. One of his weaker hitters is due up in the next inning (in the National League, this is typically the pitcher, but it could be any weak hitter.) Let's say this weak hitter (the pitcher) bats 9th in the order and is due to leadoff the next inning.

So the coach does a "double switch". He brings in a new pitcher and, at the same time, brings in a new right fielder (who happens to be batting 8th in the order). The coach tells the umpire that the new right fielder is actually replacing the pitcher's spot in the order (#9 spot) and the new pitcher is actually replacing the right fielder's spot in the order (#8 spot). After all, the batting order is not position specific, it's player specific.

The net effect is that the new right fielder (a better hitter) leads off the next inning and the new pitcher (a weak hitter) is not due up for a very long time. What is accomplished by such a substitution is that the weak hitter is continually moved away from having their turn at bat. By the time the new pitcher is scheduled to bat (which may never happen if it's late in the game), another "double switch" is pulled off.

Like I said, this can be done in softball or even in the American League, but there is seldom any motivation to do so due to the differences in the rules. The American League seldom has a hitter in their line-up that is so weak that the coach needs to burn through his substitutes in such a convoluted manner to avoid his ever coming to bat. If the hitter is that weak he probably wouldn't be in the starting lineup in the first place whereas the National League has to bite the bullet and allow their pitcher to bat.

In softball, typically, the substitution rules are so liberal with the re-entries, and DH's and FLEX's and DP's and EP's and so on that there is seldom any need to do this.

By the way, the "double switch" is not a rule, per se. It's just a term given to a double substitution where the defensive position of the players in the batting lineup is altered to facilitate an offensive objective.

In fact a manager could make a "triple switch", a "quadruple switch", or for that matter, bring in 9 new players and basically reconstruct a completely new batting order, placing the 9 substitutes anywhere in the batting order he chooses.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN