Infield Fly question
 

situation:

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B with noone out. . .Batter hits Infield fly and Infield Fly is called by the umpire. SS drops the ball unintentionally (sun) with BOTH runners 1/2 way to their next base. . . .after the drop, both runners safely advance to 3rd and 2nd respectively but they do not tag-up. . .

I was the pitcher in this game and I am also a new ump. I appealed both runners thinking they have to tag-up. Ump called both runners safe because Runners do not have to tag up on a DROPPED Infield Fly. . .is this correct???? Otherwise, I had my first triple play!!!

It is correct. If it's dropped, they don't have to tag up. Batter is still out.

And welcome to the blue crew. It can be a great avocation. I know it was for me.

The infield fly rule is simple.

The batter is out when first, second, or first, second and third are occupied with less than two outs and a fly ball on the infield can be handled routinely by an infielder.( Infield is not limited to the skin portion of a diamond...it is defined as being a catch by an infielder in normal play)

What happens after the rule is invoked has no bearing on the batter.
The batter is out.

If the ball is caught the runners are required to return to their bases before advancing.

If the ball is not caught, the runners can advance without re-touching and can only be put out on a tag, whether advancing or returning.

The infield fly only declares the batter out. It does not alter the rest of the play.

First off, welcome. Second, even as a player, what made you think that a runner would ever have to tag up on a ball not caught?

for some reason, I thought they had to tag. . .regardless. . .

Here is something for you to tuck away...

The only difference between an infield fly and any other fly ball is the BR is out, so there is no force play if the ball is not caught.

I don't know WHY people get all flummoxed over the infield fly rule, but they do. It is a very simple rule - the BR is out. That's it.

Another thing to remember is that an IFF ball does NOT have to be in the infield. All is has to be a ball that is easily caught by an infielder.. aka routine. Here are a few exaples where coaches have questioned me about the IFF:

1) F4 standing about 6 ft in front of the outfield grass. Pop is hit, F4 runs back 10 ft, camps under the ball, and makes the catch. I call IFF and declare the batter out. OC questions my call saying that the F4 was not in the "infield" so IFF fly rule can not be called. I inform him that IFF can be called on a routine pop fly and that was a routine pop fly. especially since she was camped under it prior to being caught.


2) Same Sit as above, but F9 is playing shallow and calls off F4. IFF fly rule still applies because its a ball that can be easily caught by an infielder even though it was caught by an outfielder.

Good points raised by Julio. Another thing that might come up is if there is a team playing shorthanded, and the "missing fielder" is in the infield, there is no "shadow player" in the IFF rule.

Say, for example, the defense plays without F4 (very common). Batter hits a high fly ball that would normally be easily caught by someone at F4. However, F4 is not there, and no other infielder can catch the ball with ordinary effort. This would not be an IFF.

My first year - working a LL game with a parent (lessons learned) and a ball is hit very high to F4. She's camped under it and I call infield fly - batter out if fair. Suddenly she starts drifting and now I see the RF moving back as the wind continues to blow the dang ball farther out. It lands well over the right fielder's head and I had to listen the rest of the game to "Hey blue - gonna call another OUTFIELD fly!" Well deserved and very funny!:D

Are you also saying that the Infield Fly Rule cannot be invoked if a ball, easily catchable by an infielder, is actually caught by an outfielder - For instance, a high popup just a few steps behind F4, is caught by F9 who calls F4 off?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

That's crazy talk, and not the case at all. It doesn't matter who catches it, or whether it's caught at all. The rule is that the ball CAN be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort.

I remember this discussion several times when I was coaching my DD who was (and still is) exceptionally quick to the ball...but I don't remember the answer: is the "routineness" of the catch by the infielder judged by some "standard infielder" we have embedded in our minds or by the skill level demonstrated by the particular infielder in that particular situation?

I think it's a little of both, but more heavily upon the latter than the former. If I've got an infielder who simply can't move worth a crap, and they have to haul butt to get under the ball, then that's not "ordinary effort."

OK, justcallmeblue, now what should the call be if after the IFR is invoked, the fielder intentionally drops the fly ball and thus decoys the runners into attempting to advance, and one of them is put out?

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! :D

NO!!!!!!!!!

Pick me!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:D :D :D :D

Quiet down, children! It's justcallmeblue's turn.

Well I guess we need to define "ordinary effort" further then. :D

My ordinary effort to get to a ball as a second baseman would be considered highlight reel to some others, but where do you draw the line? If it happens on the first defensive chance to that particular fielder that you've mentioned, there's no way to have your pre-conceived call on it.

What I'm really saying/asking is should there be a standard across the board definition of ordinary effort, or should there be a case by case definition, or a combination of both? Personally, I employ a combination of "both".

If someone has the chance to make a defensive play on an IFF call that I've never seen make a fielding effort (and the overall play looks to be routine), then IFF should be called. If the fielder moves like a one legged man in an arse kicking contest in the middle of a minefield, then I'll adjust my mindset and apply the new formula to the equation...

The "intentionally dropped ball" rule can never apply when an Infield Fly has been called.

No matter how intentional or devious the actions are on the part of the infielder, the runners received all the information they needed when the umpire(s) bellowed out, "INFIELD FLY, BATTER'S OUT!"

They are not forced. The only way a double play can now occur is if one of the runners foolishly walks into a tag.

Can an infielder legally, and intentionally, drop a declared infield fly?

Yes!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Gold Star, David!

Are you "justcallmeblue?" :confused:

Yeah! Boooooo! Hiss! I had my hand up first, man! ;)

Oops! Sorry. Was that question just for him?

By bad.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Oops! Sorry. Was that question just for him?

Yes, but justcallmeblue refused to answer and is now standing in the corner. You still get a Gold Star, David.

NCASAUump, for waiting your turn, you get the next question (if I can think of one!).

As long as it's a SP question, I'm game.

Though in advance, my answer is: 42.

Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they tell me to take you up to the bridge. Call that job satisfaction? Cause I don't.

Okay, here is one I saw this weekend. R1 & R2, 1 out, time has expired, and the offensive team is down by 1 or 2 runs.


IFF is hit, BU throws up both hands as does PU (Husband/wife couple that had some very "interesting" umpiring styles). The ball is not caught, and R2 is about 10-15ft off the base. She looks up, sees both umpires with their hands in the air, and casually walks back towards second. DC starts yelling at his players to tag her, which they do. BU rings her up for the third out and game over. OC starts raising hell because both umpires has signaled "Time Out" instead of IFF. Say you were the BU and the PU signaled with both hands in the air or vice versa, what would you do?


UIC (college assignor) was near me in the press box and had a few choice words to say......

If I'm the OC, I'm calling for a UIC to protest.

I am wondering how these two explained themselves to the OC.

I have no idea on that explanation, but after some of the things the UIC told them and the way they took it I am going to say not too good.

He's an idiot, and I'm all for the dogpile... but unfortunately that's not what he said at all. He said CAN, not IS.

They explained that it was not a time out signal, but an overhead double fist pump.

But....wouldn't that mean that the ball hit the plate......twice?

Just wait until I write "The Ugly" from this weekend.


These two umpires along w/ their daughter will be part of it.

Since no one answered your question yet......

I'm declaring the batter out, and placing the runners back on the bases they were on when the ball was hit.

From your description, it's obvious that the runner reacted to the umpires dead ball signal and was placed in jeopardy from it.

Oh yeah....and I'm going to have some words for him/her after the game also.

If the umpires explained that they did not give the "Time/Dead Ball" signal, then it wasn't - even if the runners thought it was. After all, they didn't say "Time!", did they? They didn't say "Dead Ball!", did they?

Did the umpires say, "Infield fly, batter's out!"?

If so, then that's what it was!

The offense bears the responsibility of knowing what it means when an Infield Fly is declared.

As unorthodox as the umpires' gestures may have been, if they (the umpires) felt that it did not unfairly put the runners in jeopardy, then the call stands. The runner is out.

Now, if the umpires thought that they did, in fact, signal inappropriately -and- as a direct result of their signals the runners were unfairly put in jeopardy -then- I could see calling the batter out and putting the runners back.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

If their mechanics are bad enough to signal dead ball during an IFF, what is the liklihood that any of this is actually going to happen?

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you somewhat on this...

What we've got here is a fustercluck due to two umpires making a bad visual call. However, it is NOT up to the runners to know that ONLY an IFF was called when two umpires gave the dead ball signal. Maybe the batter's foot was completely out of the box. Maybe, somehow, the ball contacted the bat twice. Maybe a plane was about to crash land on the outfield fence. Runners can't see these things, and so they rely upon us umpires to make the right call, both verbal and visual.

I'm a particularly loud umpire, and despite this fact, there are times when verbal calls are not heard due to dozens of spectators and participants yelling a million different things. This is why verbal calls are almost always accompanied by visual calls, especially for situations such as these. When the wrong visual call is given, runners are placed in jeopardy. At this point, the Offensive Coach should have protested the game, and those two umps should be sent to the next clinic (or maybe to this forum).

I had an IFF the other night that went unheard due to everyone screaming, but I sure as hell threw up my right fist (and ONLY my right fist) and came out from behind the plate.

Yeah, that's a pretty good analysis.

Like I said, the umpires have to be convinced they signaled incorrectly and created the situation. If the umpires thought they signaled appropriately, they shouldn't allow the coach or players talk them into what THEY thought the umpire signaled.

This reminds me of the old urban legend (not sure if it's true). During a big game with thousands of fans, the runner slides into a base on a close play and the umpire signals "out" yet says "Safe!". The runner, lying there confused asks, "Well, am I safe or out?" to which the umpire replies. "I know you're safe. You know you're safe. But 20 thousand people think you're out. So you're out." :)

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Did a LL tourney Monday. Bases loaded, no outs. Fly ball hit to 2B, I call and signal IFF. 2B drops the ball and runner from 3B scores to win the game.

Coach comes out and argues runner from 3B didn't tag up. I tried to explain to him that the ball was dropped and no tag up was required. He still insists that LL rules require a runner to tag on an IFF even if the ball is not cought.

TD rejected his protest.

I'm with you up to that last sentence. Unfortunately, poor umpire signals is not a protestable situation. Neither is failure to apply rule 10-3-C protestable (none of rule 10 is protestable). They got jobbed, but other than "protest" to the UIC and hope he oversteps his authority and overrules his crew, they have no real recourse.

Well, here is what happened.

-The play stood

-Nobody protested

-UIC was flabbergasted but realized there was nothing he could do.

-The top umpire (not UIC, but the umpire regarded as the best one there) went to discuss with them their mechanics, judgement, and uniforms but they were having non of it. Told the umpire that he was wrong and they were correct.

So...go ahead and hit us with "the ugly."

Ask and you shall receive.

Unless they get one of the umpires to say, "yeah, it's a dead ball." Then that is a rule interpretation, and subject to protest.