When do you stop ignoring fans?
 

Had a situation at a recent tournament...

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B. Batter hits towards SS, SS is set up behind the baseline and moves sideways to field the ball. R2 passes in front of the SS, who then misses the ball. R3 crosses home, R2 reaches 3B, and BR is safe at 1B. No call from either ump.

DC comes out of the dugout looking for interference. I wasn't paying close attention so I don't know exactly which ump he approached first, etc. However, the gist of the situation is that the plate ump called interference on R2, put R3 and R2 back on base and called the batter-runner out. The OC then came out to discuss the situation and one of the offensive team's fans started complaining. In what should have been the end of it, the BR was returned to 1B and R2 was taken off of 2B and sent to the dugout.

However, said fan kept loudly complaining (from the stands beyond the 1B dugout, about at 1B) that it was a bad call, it wasn't the PU's call, he shouldn't have reversed the BU, etc. This went on for about a minute before the PU came out from behind the plate, removed his mask and told the fan that he made the call and the fan had to shut up. Then when the fan continued to make his argument he told him to leave the park. When the fan refused he told the coach to tell his fan to leave. After about 2 or 3 more minutes, this was accomplished.

Would you have engaged this fan? Why or why not?

[P.S. It's not germaine to this post, but R2 stated that the ball did hit her foot]

I'm not going to address the call, per se, (since you didn't ask about that) but the eventual result was correct for interference by R2.

As to dealing with the fan, he should have either ignored the fan completely, or if that was not possible (disrupting the game), then he should have asked the coach to deal with it. If it was bad enough to disrupt the game, then the game would not proceed until the disruptive fan has been dealt with.

He should not have engaged the fan directly.

BTW, why did you make such a ruckus and then not leave when asked to? :D

Speaking for myself....I ignore this guy.

My threshold is profanity, especially in youth play. If I hear profanity from a fan, I will deal with it throught the TD, site director, and/or coach, in that order. I will not engage the fan directly...I've got a game to call.

I was the problem fan about 5 games earlier on that field.:eek:

Fairly early in that game, we have a swing-and-a-miss strike 3 with one out and 1B empty. (The ball bounces on the dirt just before reaching F2's glove, which batter didn't see.) Batter heads for dugout, but OC stops her half way to the 3B dugout and tells her calmly to get on 1B. When the player reaches 1B, PU says she has to leave the base, she's out. OC asks why. PU says she didn't head straight for first. OC says that's not the rule, she never entered the team area. PU says she doesn't have to. OC says you're wrong. PU says, you're gone. OC then says you're the worst umpire he's seen in years and leaves.

I send my son for my rulebook in the car so I can, and eventually do between innings, yell the appropriate rule number for the PU to check out after the game. I'm sure he did :D

Later in that same game, we have another D3K with no outs, but runners on 1B and 2B. BR in this case heads for 1B at a run and R1 and R2 make for 3B and 2B. DC gets time and complains that the new R3 is out because 1B was occupied with less than 2 outs. PU agrees, and says that R1 and R2 have to return to their original bases. Me (and a bunch of other OT fans) start getting rowdy, but in this case the BU comes down and has a conference with PU and corrects him, returning the runners to 3B and 2B. Since I already have the book in my hands, I yell out that rule reference for the PU's benefit, too. :D

Oh and regarding the OP obnoxious fan, there was no profanity, just loudness. I think if the umpire had just said "play ball" and let a pitch get thrown, it would have been over.

To answer your heading in the OP of: When do you stop ignoring fans?

My answer: I never stop ignoring fans.

Nope. I don't talk to anyone outside the fence unless it's my UIC or the TD. In this case, I would have given the HC the opportunity to solve the situation, and if he did nothing, I would get the TD and have him take care of the spectator. It's not my job to deal with spectators. In fact, ASA 10.1 gives me the "power" to order a player, coach, captain or manager to do stuff, but not the spectators.

I can just hear it
Hey Blue Check out 8.3.:D :D
That Cracks me up

The umpire is not responsible for anything that happens outside the field, neither is either coach/manager.

The best way to handle an idiot like in the OP is to put the players in the dugouts, call the TD or whoever and refuse to restart the game until the PITA is gone.

If the umpires are mangling the game through rules misinterpretation, the manager(s) have an outlet, protest the game.

:( You do realize you may, in fact, have incited the idiot fan...

While the coach may not be responsible in general terms for "anything that happens outside the field", if that was a parent of one of his players, he does have considerable influence / power to deal with the situation. Having the coach deal with it is, in my experience, the quickest way to get it resolved. It would most likely quickly stop the disruptive behavior, and I don't really care if the guy is removed or not so long as the disruption stops.

I would consider your "best way" to be the way to handle it if the coach cannot / will not.

Also, neither of these gets employed if the fan is merely being loud, obnoxious, and annoying. For that, he just gets ignored. It is only if he is actually disrupting the game.

Dakota,
That is probably true. I was just thinking of the fans who yell nonsense about rules they don't know "C'mon Blue, it's foul; it's sitting in the batters box." "C'mon Blue, It's foul. The hands are part of the bat."

Just to imagine someone citing rule numbers is hilarious.

Hey JefferMC,
Are you in the same association as the guys calling the game??

Dakota, I agree. If the fan is just being obnoxious, you have to ignore them, it's when they might influence the game. I really have no problem with asking the manager to "deal" with the idiot, just as long as they are not threatened by the umpire to do something stupid (like, forfeit) if they don't.

I had a parent during States a couple of weeks ago who was down the LF line yelling at EVERYTHING. I ignored him and once, just once, had the urge to go down and punch him in the face. His son's team advanced and played the next night. He was ignored to the point where he got REALLY obnoxious and the cops escorted him out. I wasn't there for that one, would have loved to have been.

I guess that's possible. However, this guy knows more about softball rules than any 10 umpires put together and I really don't think he needed me for inspiration.;)

For example, he was sitting next to me the game before this one and was telling me that it mattered where the runner stops between bases (i.e. if she had passed the half-way point) for how the LBR is enforced. I tried to explain to him that location (other than being on the base) had nothing to do with it (the book was back in the car at that point so I couldn't show him) but it was obvious he knew a lot more than me, so I shut up.

Besides, his daughter was the lead-off batter for the home team and put the fifth pitch over the left field fence, so he was pretty pumped. This incident happened about 4 batters later and torpedoed a pretty good rally that was about to erase the visiting team's 4 run lead. [Note I say this only in regards to his state of mind. The PU did his job correctly WRT the call and, eventually, the result, and it was R2's fault she didn't manage to avoid the ball.]

Normally, I'm not an obnoxious fan. I think that was the first time I've ever volunteered rule references like that, and it may well be the last (unless asked, of course). Yeah, I've been guilty of the rare chirp on what appears to be a horrible call (strike above the eyes or hitting the plate) because I know I've never made a bad judgement call in my whole life.:rolleyes:

Ask anyone who knows me: Draw a line from shoulder to shoulder, extend it out to infinity, I'm pretty much "deaf" for the 180 degree area behind that line - even to other umpires who happen to watch my game. ;)

Only time I ever address a situation WRT rowdy fans is if I hear a threat towards me or other players. Otherwise, hell, I've heard it all, and couldn't care less. Most of them are pretty clueless, so I simply take pity on them. But hey, ignorance is bliss, I guess.

I once had a 2-7 off suit and was betting like I had a pair of Kings. Someone called my bluff, too, just like this guy called the PU's bluff. The PU had no authority.

This is why I ignore the fans, because I have no authority over them. If there is an issue in the fan section that needs to be addressed, I let park/game management address it... after one of the other fans complains about the situation. It's not my problem. (Threatening a participant, coming on the field or throwing something onto the field is about the only reason think I would notify park management myself.)

You just brought to mind a situation that occurred at a rec-league game that we had to miss.

Visiting team has one or two loud and obnoxious fans. At least as bad as OP. I think what sparked the following was a close call at first.

PU, finally getting enough tells a fan to shut up or he'll throw him out. Visiting coach reportedly tells the fan "Don't worry, he can't do anything do you." [Really helpful, wasn't she:( ]. Anyway, the fan follows her advice and keeps haranging the ump, who then tells him he has to leave. Eventually fan leaves and game resumes.

When Do You Stop Ignoring Fans?



When you step out of you car and ready yourself to call the game.

When do you stop ignoring the fans?

Never.

Never get into a pi$$ing contest with a skunk.

I need to contradict some other's here who have said "never". For full disclosure, I happened to eject a fan Tuesday night. In my situation, adult women's fastpitch, the fan started complaining about calls in the first game of a double-header. This I can ignore all day. However, in game two she became exceedingly loud and boisterous. I observed the tone of both teams and the other handful of fans as a couple innings passed. It was clear to me that she was embarrassing her own team and entertaining the opposition and their fans. So long as this was the case, I have no problem. The end of her night came when she questioned my integrity as an umpire. That was when I informed her coach, loud enough so she and other fans could hear that she had one minute to vacate or the game was to be forfeited.

There is a line for players, a line for coaches, and a line for spectators. When the line is crossed, they have to go. In my case, it was through the coach, in college it is the on-site administrator, in HS it is a school representative, in the pros it is a host team staff member. There is always an avenue but you can not bluff your way through it. When it is time, you have to commit to your actions or you will lose all credibility and respect on the field.

"she had one minute to vacate or the game was to be forfeited."

By what rule would you have forfeited the game had the spectator refused to leave??? There is none, the coaches/managers ARE NOT responsible for the conduct of the fans.

This might be the point where you put the players in the dugouts and refuse to restart, or suspend the game and walk-off. Then let the administration deal with game suspension.

I agree with your post. It's probably semantics but I, as an umpire, have no authority to eject a fan. I remember having a fan removed a few years ago in a college game and calling my supervisor about it afterwards. She said YOU didn't do it did you? Luckily, I went through the coach and had the obnoxious fan removed. I would guess rec ball might be a bit different though. Going through the proper channels will always save you heartache in the end.

I have a very difficult time believing anyone who says "never" when it comes to fans. We're human, and we can only tune out so much. Some are better at it than others, but we all have our trigger points. However, once that line is crossed, there's an appropriate way to handle it, and it's rarely ever a direct route.

NCAA or HS, you're right. Most youth ball, you're right too, and there's usually some sort of field admin to get rid of these fans.

But in every adult ball league I've ever worked, the local rules had the managers of the teams responsible for their fans, with penalties up to and including forfeiture.

I think I've addressed a fan problem exactly twice in my career, not including such adult leagues. In both cases, field admin was nowhere to be seen, and the problems were prolonged, profane, and personal - and got to the point where players were reacting to them.