Strange ending
 

I have been a lurking reader for some time now and decided to jump into the fray. I am not an umpire but plan to become one after our last daughter graduates high school. I coach a 16U ASA girls fastpitch team. I have learned a great deal from reading the back and forth between you guys.

Anyway, here's the situation. 18U ASA rules. Northern Nationals in St. Louis last week. My daughter's team not playing this game. Bottom of the 8th with bases loaded. 2 outs. BR gets walked. Runner on 3rd is forced home and touches the plate. The BR is getting hugged by the 1st base coach and never reached first base. The offensive team clears the field and goes into the dugout. The defensive team remains on the field and appeals the play because the BR never made it to first base. PU and BU confer and rule that the defense had left the field and therefore the run counts and play is over, even though the defense had clearly NOT left the field as they were still all standing on it.

Again, I have no horse in this race. I just wanted some opinions. I look forward to jumping in threads from time to time, however, I recognize my place here and plan to mostly lurk.

Ed

Where were they (especially the infielders and the pitcher) EXACTLY. "On the field" is too broad. For the appeal to be valid, the infielders and the pitcher must not have vacated their normal fielding positions and entered foul territory.

Hey, welcome... this ain't the baseball board! ;)

Guess what? This isn't an appeal play. Technically (by rule) once the BR leaves the field of play, she's out, and on this play, the run would not count. 99.99% of all umpires will ignore this, but once it's brought to their attention, the timing of it being brought to their attention is entirely irrelevant, as (again, technically) it's NOT an appeal, it's simply an out that should have been recorded when it happened ... which would be before BR reaches first.

You're right, Mike.... I read right over the part where the offense goes into the dugout.

I agree, we need more information, beginning with, where was the BR when the defense started the "appeal" about the BR never reaching first base? If she entered the dugout or other dead ball territory, then we have an out and the run doesn't score. If she was still near first base, then the defensive unit made a big mistake. They should have kept quiet until one of the runners entered the dugout.

I am not sure what the PU and the BU talked about, but there must have been atleast 1 defensive player that left the field. In interpreting "left the field" I would have to have a player abandon their usual fielding position and enter foul territy; I would have to have F2 enter the dugout or dead ball territory.

But what about the contact with the 1B coach? Could that be ruled interference? I thought I saw this type of play on a blooper reel from MLB back 20 years ago. I think I remember the result was BR out, no run scored.

16U??, bad coaching even at 12U!!!!

I'm unclear as to why you say we need more information. The OP states quite clearly the answer to the "more information" that you need. It says that the offense entered their dugout, and then the defense began the appeal (which wasn't really an appeal). You say "they should have kept quiet", but it quite clearly says that they did, and waited (smartly) until the BR actually entered the dugout.

Please don't confuse the readers, or at least explain to us why you think ANYONE had to be left on the field. No need for interpretation or any convoluted determination as to which players went where... Nothing. By RULE (which most of us will ignore in a case exactly like this, but CANNOT ignore if it's specifically brought to our attention before we leave), this runner is OUT. Period. No appeal necessary - simply OUT the moment she steps in the dugout.

No, not unless the coach specifically physically assisted the runner.

The BR was about half way to 1st when she and the 1st base coach began jumping, hugging, celebrating, etc and she never went any further toward 1st. The runner on 3rd touched home plate. The BR and the remaining runners went into or over to their dugout. The offense began lining up to shake hands. The DC kept his players on the field, near 1st base, and then called out to the umpires that the runner had not reached 1st base and she should be out. The umpires discussed things and declared that the run counted because the defense had left the field, which they very clearly had not as they were all still standing on it. However, the BR and other runers had without question left the field.

It seemed to me that the run should not have counted not only because of the 1st base coach being on the field doing her dance with the BR but also because the BR never reached 1st base.

Ed

I'll say it again ... this is not an appeal. Whether the defense left or not is irrelevant. Whether the UMPIRES left could very well have an effect ... but this is simply an out - no need to appeal. Just, apparently, a need to remind the umpires to enforce this particular rule.

Mike,

Thanks for clearing things up. Sometimes you read a post and skip a fact that's starring you right in the face.

I guess when the OP said "Offense entered the dugout" I never associated the BR as part of the "offense".

EJL -- Did you happen to see an umpiring crew with a problem walking around after this occured? I can only image that the UIC went off on these guys....(and rightfully so). Shouldn't have happened, especially at a national.

I've always stated that in this type of situation, the umpires should intentionally move into a position to make a call and make it obvious to all that you are looking for something to happen. Many times you see umpires barely paying attention.

And, no, it is not coaching or tipping off one team or the other. I'm not suggesting the umpire motion to the players or coaches, just move to the prescribed position as if a call needed to be made since it is imperative that you have a clear look at the player touching the base.

No, I didn't pay much attention after the game ended. I will say this, however, I saw several umpires and one umpire in particular who were amazing. They were exactly what my idea of an umpire should be. There were also a few down there, especially during the pool play, who appeared to be just the opposite of what I believe an umpire should be.

Getting back to my OP. What I'm getting is that once the BR went into DBT without having touched 1st base then she was out. Because she was the third out then the forced runner from 3rd base would not count. Does that sum it up correctly?

Ed

Why would 99.99% of umpires ignore an out? Especially an out that, if I understand your post correctly, they would call if someone brought it to their attention?

And then you call the out immediately when the BR enters the dugout or DBT without having touched 1B, regardless or whether anyone brings it to your attention, right?

Just like a D3K...batter goes into dugout/team area, she's toast. In this case, no run scores.

Were any of these players or coaches related to Fred Merkle?

Imagine this scenario without the defense paying attention...

Game ending base-on-balls, the offense comes out to celebrate, the defense leaves dejected. BR mingles with her team. They line up at 1st and 3rd to shake hands, and proceed across the diamond, shaking hands with their opponents. Offense mingles a little longer, does some cheer or huddle or "Great Job Girls", and proceeds to the dugout.

"YOU'RE OUT!!! Bring 'em back onto the field!"

I don't think so. Can you imagine getting future assignments after that? I can't. This is what some refer to as "picking nits (or boogers)". 99.99% of the time, we're leaving this one alone.

Usually it's rather obvious when the defense is paying attention and waiting for the BR to enter the dugout, but if it's not, and they are, we have to call this out. WE should ALWAYS be paying attention.

Yes.

But assuming she did not enter DBT, it is an appeal. And, if any infielder remains in fair territory, and the umpires have not left the field, the appeal should be honored.

I can't imagine a declaration that the appeal was not honored because defense had left the field when they are standing there staring them in the face.

My guess is this crew was NOT paying attention and neither of them knew for sure what happened, so they made something up to avoid making a call.

Pretty sad in any game, but especially in a national tournament.

Just curious why you keep calling this (and treating this like) an appeal. It's not. And it shouldn't be treated as one. Had BR overrun the base and went to the dugout, then it's an appeal. This one is in NO WAY an appeal. Defense's position on the field is irrelevant.

I changed the scenario to make it an appeal, admittedly leaving out a lot of detail. The only point was the crew was making stuff up either way.

Gotcha. Fair enough.

Sort of a reverse situation, but I have seen what looked like a bottom-7th, home team losing, 2-out, nobody on, game-ending third strike where the defense left the field celebrating and the BR calmly walked to 1B (weaving her way through the defensive team as they streamed across the baseline on the way to the dugout) because nobody noticed that the blue had indicated (by lack of ringing her up and remaining in an attentive stance) that it was a non-caught 3K. He directed the defensive team back to the field and continued play.

Why would she stop at 1B?

That was my thought exactly

F2 had tossed the ball to the circle (habit?), and all of the defense had not gotten to the dugout (the infielders or players closest to the right side of the field were more or less crossing the baseline on the way to the visitor's dugout as she went to 1B and the outfielders were still crossing the infield on their way to the dugout) so once the last two or three of the defense remaining on the field realized she had gone, they sort of picked up the ball and stopped moving to the dugout and looked at her (uncertain what was going on) and would have been in a position to hold her from advancing to 2B.

Maybe blue could have awarded her 2B on obstruction, since she had to weave between 2 or 3 defensive players (impeding her progress) on the way to 1B.