USA vs. Japan game ends on LBR violation
 

Didn't see it, but kudos to the ump for not wimping out on the call.

Although, I'm sure they'll probably get mentioned in this post.

I saw the replay and although there was a pause it didn't appear to me that the runner waited too long before returning back to first. I'd like to see the replay again but at the time the ball got back into Cat's hand in the circle it appeared that a count of "a thousand one" may not have been finished before the runner's foot started back to first. I would love to see the replay again (I knew I should have recorded that game), but from what I have seen of it it appeared to be a judgment call that could have gone either way. Anyway as close as it appeared and being it was in a championship game I think the look-back out call might not have been the proper thing to do.

Did you hear the dumb remark from one of the announcers? She said the runner should have been given a warning and then if she didn't return to the base she should be called out....:eek: Nothin' like fun at the ole' ball park!

I thought it was a questionable call. When the ball was returned from the outfield after the fly ball catch to Cat, she was outside the circle and the runner was off the base. Cat seemed to give the runner a direct look, then stepped into the circle.
When she stepped back into the circle, the runner, who was only about two strides off the base, returned to first base. Maybe not lickety split, but she did return.

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/ivp/index?id=

On this ESPN video page under "The Latest". Scroll down about 2/3.

From looking at the replay, this is the wrong call. However if it were a LBR violation, then the umpire should make that call no matter what the game situation. Afterall if a ball is caught in flight in the first it is a out just as it is in the seventh.

I thought is was interesting that the call was made by the plate ump with her back towards F1.

Taped it and played it back several times .
This was very harsh no WRONG
As mentioned in a previous post when Kate got the ball she was outside the circle she looked at the runner , then stepped into the circle .
The runner was retreating then .
A very disappointing finish to the game .
But then there were several mistakes by the umps and the strike zone was not consistent on the outside ball .

Guess it just goes to show that none of us are perfect. There is no such thing as a bad call, some are just better then others. I have told people many times that the day I have a perfect game, is the day I'm going to retire. Haven't seen one or had one yet.

Glad someone else noticed that PU never saw whether or not Cat was in the circle. Guess PU was counting 1000-1001, then bang.

I thought the call was wrong, but then heck, I am not doing World Cup either.

At the time of the call, I thought it was a horrible call and I still do. The runner was moving back to the bag - heck, she was only a few steps away - she was going back.

Wrong call - period.

Is it possible that the fact the runner didn't actually TURN toward the base to return may have confused the issue?

What about that game you and I did last year in Portland?

Well, if you thought that game was perfect, Ed's opinion of your game obviously isn't the same as YOUR opinion of his. :D

Just kidding!!!

Umpire was too quick to make the call
 

As a high school and rec umpire I have to say this call simply was a bad call. I've watched it over and over and over. The baserunner WAS stepping back to the bag and was only two steps away when Cat was in the circle. I see this SAME thing happen every week of the various seasons I umpire. Never would I have called it unless the player was failing to move. I had players farther off the base and be stepping back to the bag and not called it.

Plus we always been told "Don't become part of the game", don't end the game on a "Controversial call", and don't become the "focus of the game".

This Ump sure became the "center of attention"! What a way to end and ruin a great series for the USA team.

If the umpire is easily confused. ;)

It looks like I am in the minority, but I think the call was correct. I recorded the game and watched it several times. The ball was in the circle and the runner stood for two full seconds before moving toward the base. I don’t know about ISF but in ASA ISA and FED, the rule states the runner must be moving immediately when the ball is returned to the circle. I give the runner about two seconds and it appeared the Umpire making the call did the same. There is no mention of how far the runner is off the base. As far as ending the game this way it was unfortunate, however, if you will call it in the first inning you should call it in the final inning. The call earlier in the game when the runner was called out for leaving early at first base was more border line than this one.

Like a lot of rules you can apply them as in the rule book or rule them as the INTENT the rule was written .
This is one of them .
The intent is to stop the cat and mouse between pitcher and runner , in this case it was not happening , the runner was returning to the base .
A classic example is if you rule a batter out for bunting on the 3rd strike .
Follow your definitions and see what you come up with and there are many more .
This was a bad call and as worse than the one last year when the Australian runner was ruled out for removing her helmet on base when there was no play .
Umpires should not get into the game this way , there was just no need .

While I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion, what does the distance have to do with anything? I doesn't make any difference whether the runner is one step or 30 feet off the base, the LBR is an appropriate call if the runner does not return in a timely fashion.

Say what? If that means you don't make a call because it may become controversial or bring attention to the umpire, then I cannot disagree more. You see it, you call it regardless of where you are in the game.

I'm sure she wasn't looking for the attention. I have no doubt that Dora believe she made the appropriate call at the time. If you continued to watch after the call was made, she did confer with the crew and then made a second "out" signal reinforcing her original call. Don't know what was said at that point, but apparently none of her crew had anything to cause the call to be changed.

i saw it for the first time today - i thought it was way too quick for a LBR violation

I don't have benefit of a recording to go frame-by-frame; the only video I've seen is the low-resolution long distance shot on the ESPN site, so it is hard to tell what the runner is doing between the time the ball is back in the circle and the runner makes her first obvious move (obvious on the video). But, the time between those two is 1+ seconds by my estimate. That is a quick LBR call, but not out of line.

Maybe the real perception problem is the PU waited another second or two to actually make the call, and by then the runner was moving.

You are correct this is the intent of the rule is to stop the cat and mouse between pitcher and runner. But you say in this case it was not happening. I don't know I can't read the runner's mind. The runner was standing there, Cat was not having anything to do with it turned and walked into the circle. The runner was returning to the base but not until standing still for two second after the ball was inside the circle.

The rule book states the runner must move immediately, This puts the judgment on the umpire. I feel two seconds is time enough to find the ball and start moving back or forward to a base. Your judgment may be three seconds, or maybe five or maybe stand there until you decided the runner is playing cat and mouse. If that is your judgment that is fine. I just don't call it that way.

Weak "excuse" for not making a call or not being able to determine intent.

I went back and watched it again and I don't see it - she's clearly retreating to the base when the PU calls her out. Wrong call - period.

Instead of looking at when the PU made the call, look at when the ball was back in the circle. How long after that before the runner moved? I can imagine the reason for the delay in the call ("Did I just see what I saw????"). At least I can see me hesitating on the call...

Tom, I agree. I think part of the issue was the umpire's position. She was in a position that did not allow her to see both pitcher and runner at the same time. In her explanation to the coach, the umpire supposedly noted she looked at one then the other (pitcher and runner) and then again and made the call.

From our angle, and that of the cameras, we can all sit at our computer and judge, but none of us can say we would do anything different if it were us on the field. To do so would be very presumptuous.

There was a replay of the game this weekend and I recorded it on my DVR. In watching the replays that ESPN showed, all of them were in slow motion. There was no "real time" replay to judge exactly how long Cat had the ball before the runner took her first step. I would like to have seen a replay at regular speed but from what I saw I believe (1) the PU was not in a good position to make the call and (2) was "probably" too quick on the triger. BU1 was in a much better position and didn't even put up the hammer until after PU started to.

All I am saying is I don't know why the runner is standing there and don't care. I do know the runner has a a time period when she is required to start moving.

And that time period would be ...

My rule book says immediately. Many officials will give a silent count of "one thousand one..." but that is not cast in stone.

I called a look back rule violation to end a state tournament several years ago. I saw it and I called it. Any umpire that calls a game should just call the game. I did not think "Wow this will end the game". No TV though, but I did get followed to my car.

Was anyone who posted here at the game? What happened off camera?

Please ask whoever is always telling you this to send back their trainers card. It's been revoked.

Clearly retreating WHEN the PU calls the out is irrelevant, don't you think? Aren't most baserunners past first base when you call the out? What matters is the umpire on the spot's perception of "immediately". I agree it was borderline, but I think one could make just as good an argument FOR this particular call as against it, and this thread could have been about how they missed an LBR in such a big game had she not called it.

Yes, yes, yes, you are right about the word WHEN. I'm glad that as an official I'm not judged about the words I write. Still - after looking at it (yet again today) it's still a bad call. Ever been accused of making a call (or not making one) to hurry up and get the game over?

Hmmmm, I wonder if she was being paid off like Tim Donaghy?:D

There aren't enough :D in the world to make that funny! :(

Larry:

Knowing Dora and knowing her professionalism and commitment to the game I am offended by the so called joke.

Just don't go there.:mad:

Rachel, it is a joke, plain and simple. Tasteless? Maybe, but whether you like it or not, he's allowed.

Honestly, I'm already dreading how often we will hear this in softball, baseball, football this next year. I SURE don't need it from a fellow official. Bad taste.

Of course we are all allowed to say things, but there are limits, even for those who are never offensive before.

And Rachel and I and mcrowder are allowed to dislike it, be offended by it and see it is inappropriate and certainly not funny.

I am also offended by this comment. Even as a joke this has no business on this board. If I heard this on the field about myself or my partners, there would be an immediate ejection even if it was a joke. This comment has no business being here.

Larry White

And you are equally allowed to be offended. Then again, there isn't a joke out there about an individual that may not offend someone, but you know what? They, too, are allowed.

Personally, I thought it was hillarious. I read it as a statement in jest with all the latest brouhaha about the former NBA referee and not an insinuation that Dora, or any other softball umpire, was on the take.

Thank you Mike for seeing through my comment. Of course I didn't mean she was on the take - OMG! If she were, she would have made more bad calls. It was totally a joke taking her meaningless call and jokingly implying that the whole game hinged on it. Of course it was a joke - who would have cared about this game to bet on it? The Japanese mafia???? Sheeeeeeeesh!

the Tim Donaghy joke isn't nearly as offensive as things I see and hear other day concerning our avocation. It's much more offensive to see things on this board that besmirch the good name of umpiring, from lack of knowledge to lack of hustle to lack of uniform, ad infinitum.

Let's invest the air we suck in on fixing the REAL problems, then we can worry about whether Tim Donaghy jokes amongst us umpires should be tolerated.

(Of course, the first coach to bring that up is GONE quicker than my 14th ex-wife.)

Look, Irish, don't you think you'll get to 6000 posts soon enough without such tactics (five nearly identical posts)?:D

My rule book says immediately as well. I beleave that leaves it up to the umpires judgment of what is immediately. For me, having a set peroid of time (around two seconds) gives each team the same chance to return or advance to a base. Once you call the dead ball, even if at that point the runner has started moving you have already made the call.

I think the ump was just making sure the "point spread/runs scored" would not be over the betting line....I'm sure I saw a few mobsters down near the front row behind the plate umpire.

Please, don't feed the troll.

That's a record. The moment his number of posts exceeded his name, he made the ignore list. Nicely done.

Thanks. Don't know what happened there, didn't see them this AM.

Deleted most. BTW, they all had the same post time and same post number, so this was possibly a system glitch. Or maybe eteamz slithered their way onto this site. :D

It was a waist of effort, it didn't look like Japan was going to score anyway.

What does their weight have to do with anything?

A Waist is a Terrible Thing To Mind ;)

All of them looked kind of skinny. ;)